Episode 156 – A Podcast About the Salem Witch Trials

Incantations. Spells. Grimoires. The Devil’s words. BS tests and the hangman’s noose. All things that today don’t mean much, but in 1692 they meant everything, especially during the epic (kind of) mythological time of the Salem Witch Trials! Blown out of proportion is an understatement, and Kalvin and Nick dive deep to abolish the blasphemers and confirm the truths. We bring our spectral evidence to the table and dissect this grim episode of American lore and the trials and tribulations many poor women and men of a Puritan community faced on the frontiers of Massachusetts. Yet another time where it’s easy to point fingers until the higher ups find themselves pointed out, and just as quickly as it flamed up, it fizzled out.

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Full Episode Transcript Available Below:

Kalvin 0:06
To podcast each week we dive deep in whatever it is we find interesting. I’m your host, Calvin and joining me from 17th century Massachusetts. It’s your co host, Nick Richardson. I, sir.

Nick 0:20
I’m here in the state of mass. choose that. I

Kalvin 0:30
had to like do the math on how the centuries worked, because I couldn’t remember if it was one more one less than 1690s I never got

Nick 0:38
that shit. 1692 specifically,

Kalvin 0:41
yeah, because we are talking about the Salem witch trials. Yeah, heard. Now, before we get into it, I would like to say we’re supposed to be talking about the OSS, which is America’s first spy agency, the precursor to the CIA. And it just wasn’t that much fun stuff to talk about on it and and because I wanted to, like cover the I read this cracked article like two years ago that talked about all these dumb things that they tried. And I wanted to find more of those and talk about those kinds of things. And they don’t publish a lot of that information. Apparently, they don’t want that many people to find out about the dumb shit they did back in the late 1940s.

Unknown Speaker 1:23
Yeah, that is

Kalvin 1:26
what has been talking about like, World War Two spying, and that’s not fun for me.

Nick 1:32
I mean, we’ve seen we’ve all seen Inglorious Basterds. We know how it is. It’s it’s disheartening. Trust me.

Kalvin 1:38
He’s done a podcast on spies already. Yeah, so that that goes right there. We wanted the spy fuck ups here. And we just couldn’t find enough on it. So we pivoted late in the game to the Salem witch trials, which has always been somewhat fascinating to me, and just like an intriguing part of time, like piece of history that people were the stupid tune, so I kind of wanted to look deeper into it to kind of see how that happened.

Nick 2:07
Honestly, this shit infuriated me. This is made me so fucking frustrated.

Kalvin 2:14
That was rough.

Nick 2:15
I mean, everyone was just bananas. Just going bananas. Reminds me of something

Kalvin 2:21
this shit is bananas be a Na Na. Yes,

Nick 2:25
I will remind you I said that like probably seven or eight times and my coworker was like, Will you shut the fuck up? Be hey, yeah, yeah, yes. It’s like Oh, sorry.

Kalvin 2:33
My Asif says the Salem witch trials, our searing series of hearings, some prosecutions and prosecutions of people accused of witchcraft in colonial Massachusetts between February 16 92 and may 1693. Over a year this shit. But of course, it also took like a month to travel from, like 12 miles so I could see how that works.

Nick 3:00
Yeah, to like, towns nearby and stuff. Yeah,

Kalvin 3:05
yeah, grand juries and trials for this capital crime were conducted by a court of oyer and terminer in 1692, and by a superior court of judicature. Yeah, Jude judicature. In 1693, both held in Salem town where the executions would eventually take place as well, is the deadliest witch hunt in the history of colonial North America.

Nick 3:28
That means that same sex sense since been brutal witch hunts,

Unknown Speaker 3:34
which have never been seen before. It’s this

Kalvin 3:37
is where that term originated. Apparently, 14 other women in two men had been executed in Massachusetts and Connecticut during the 17th century. So we’re not going to talk about how many because we’re gonna talk about how many were killed later. But it’s more than 16 people were executed for the Salem Witch trial. So out of all of the 17th century, only 16 other people had been executed in this area. So that’s that just for like other reasons than witchcraft, right?

Nick 4:05
It’s basically like,

Kalvin 4:08
yeah, I can’t make that I can’t make that. Episode is one of colonial America’s most notorious cases of mass hysteria. It has been used in political rhetoric as Nick so eloquently pointed out a few minutes ago and popular literature as a vivid cautionary tale about the dangers of isolationism, religious extremism, false accusations and lapses in due process.

Nick 4:34
Yeah, they have all that shit in spades in the old town of Salem.

Kalvin 4:38
Yeah, very new. How are you buying the mass hysteria here?

Nick 4:42
Am I

Kalvin 4:42
like that it took over and people really believed. No, no, it’s

Unknown Speaker 4:48
the devil for sure.

Kalvin 4:50
Definitely the devil okay.

Nick 4:51
He was out here. He had some he put a spell on you. And you’re the devils.

Kalvin 4:59
So It was not a unique case, but a colonial American example of the much broader phenomena of witch trials in the early modern period, which took place also in Europe so that this was also going on in other places Europe with their puritanical roots, also had some some witch trials and witch hunts going on. There are many more brutal, man they burn,

Nick 5:22
burn people over there.

Kalvin 5:23
Yeah. And I mean, as we see in the historical context of wandavision de that, some people tried to burn some witches in Salem to

Nick 5:35
Yeah, well, they wouldn’t they wouldn’t let you know that, though. I mean,

Kalvin 5:41
fuck those guys up. So

Nick 5:42
it doesn’t really matter. I mean, it was her all alone to her.

Kalvin 5:47
I guess spoilers for one division. Many historians consider the lasting effects of the trials to have been highly influential in subsequent United States history, which thank God that, like we got, we seemingly learn from that for the most part, and it’s, for the most part,

Nick 6:07
it’s gotten pretty close. If we weren’t all liberal centers, then I think we would have had them pretty regularly. But fortunately,

Kalvin 6:18
well, so this is kind of what I’m talking to you according to the historian George Lincoln Burr, which like great name there for a historian. You got George, like all time, great old guy, researcher name, yet George Washington. King George, you know, every old person in history is named George Lincoln, a very influential figure in American history. If you don’t know about Lincoln, look it up. And then Burr, you know, Aaron, Aaron Burr. shot, Alexander Hamilton. Yeah, he was vice president for a little while. So like to be named George Lincoln, Bert, you, you’ve got to be a historian.

Nick 6:52
And he’s a notorious deck, too. So I mean,

Kalvin 6:56
you got Bert George Lincoln Burr.

Nick 6:58
Aaron Burr. Yeah. So you’ve got two super dope American people. And then you got that decoded.

Kalvin 7:05
So this historian said, the Salem witchcraft was the rock on which theocracy was shattered. And to me that makes sense. These trials were conducted by these kind of kangaroo courts of sorts, mostly done by church leaders. It’s easy to see how at that point, basing your government on religious ideals is going to quickly spiral into something like this when you when everything is, well, anything that bad, anything bad that happens has to be the devil’s work. You’re gonna find the devil’s work a lot.

Nick 7:35
Oh, yeah. A whole lot. You take a bad shit. It’s the devil.

Kalvin 7:38
Yeah, yeah.

Nick 7:39
I mean, yeah, it’s not good. Not a good time there.

Kalvin 7:44
Yeah, there’s no real checks or balances for the church or its leaders. And and, you know, all of that churches power at the time, regular citizens basically had the thought process of, well, this dude works for God. So they must be right. And that’s kind of how this spiraled out of control.

Nick 8:01
Yeah, one might call it a banana republic. even

Kalvin 8:05
be a Na Na. Yes.

Unknown Speaker 8:07

Unknown Speaker 8:09
is public. It’s

Nick 8:12
as bad as a banana republic.

Unknown Speaker 8:17
Well, I hope but I know this guy, Bruce Wayne. Pretty cool guy.

Unknown Speaker 8:20
He shops there a lot. He wanted to know if you have this in black.

Unknown Speaker 8:26
Banana Republic has a lot of khaki. That’s why I don’t like black, khaki, wacky.

Unknown Speaker 8:34
Black, then.

Unknown Speaker 8:35

Kalvin 8:36
So let’s move into our five fundamental some things about Salem witch trials. We’re gonna talk about how many witches they caught, which groups of people were most affected by the trials and kind of who they went after and why. Why did they think these people were witches? That’s another point we’re gonna make. How did they determine that the people were actually witches, the people who are accused, and last League, a lot of notes there. What did they do with the quote unquote witches? Once they caught them? We had a lot to dig into here. So Nick, do you have any research on how many people actually caught

Nick 9:10
or have used, you know, super minimal about a research in regards to that. And by that, I mean a baton. So technically loaded onto butts. I mean, tons of which butts? One might find those quite disgusting. I don’t know what I’m talking about. More than 200 people were accused officially 30 were found guilty.

Kalvin 9:36
Yes. 30 were found guilty.

Nick 9:38
So technically, they caught a lot more around. Yeah. 100 to 150. But like you said, kangaroo courts. So you know, they had a little loophole they can use to get out of a bit of punishment.

Kalvin 9:50
Well, it was more just like, well, this girl said that this other lady spirit visited her so yeah, we’re going to arrest them. Better safe than sorry.

Nick 9:58
Let me they had spectral evidence to Do you need more?

Kalvin 10:03
I guess I just got that the arrests were made in numerous towns beyond Salem and Salem village to get those 200 because like Salem’s not that big of a town. So there were some witches bused in from Andover and Topsfield just to kind of push those numbers up.

Nick 10:18
We need to sit over here magic, you know, familiar stat

Kalvin 10:21
democrats needed more votes from nearby and over in Topsfield.

Nick 10:27
Well, I heard in Andover and Topsfield. They made it really hard to vote.

Kalvin 10:30
Yeah, it was witches voting. Thursday’s really really long.

Nick 10:35
Yeah, you can’t give them any water because there might be wish to

Kalvin 10:40
well, they would melt if you get water they would melt so that’s why they outlawed the giving of water in

Nick 10:44
the Lincoln and his water.

And, you know, 1690s America, let’s put a little piece

Kalvin 10:58
that’ll heal you write up that are your troops were most affected by these trials. Say that again? Which groups were most affected by the trials? Women? Women?

Nick 11:09
Yeah, like 78%. You Yes, so that was sick, bro. That was a good one.

Kalvin 11:20
To go along with throughout their daily lives, Puritans, especially parents and women actively attempted to thwart attempts by the devil to overtake them and their soul. So the women are kind of like putting themselves out there to be possessed. And the Puritans held the belief that men and women were equal in the eyes of God, but not in the eyes of the devil. So that’s why women were targeted more often. Women souls were seen as unprotected in their weak and vulnerable vulnerable bodies. Which Yeah, first show that was got it right. Like y’all are weak and vulnerable, just kidding, women. feminism. Let’s go.

Nick 11:52
I mean, yeah, and I’m here with that hippie bullshit, Calvin.

Kalvin 11:56
Several factors may explain why women were more likely to make guilt to witchcraft than men. Historian Elizabeth rice asserts that some likely believed they had truly given into the devil, and others might have believed they had done so temporarily, however, because those who confess were reintegrated into society, society some women might have confessed in order to spare their lives. Oh, no shit. That’s what you think happened? historian. People are just like, Oh, hey, that lady confess. And she got to go back to her life. I’m going to do the same.

Nick 12:22
Right? And I have to name someone. That’s it. Yeah, Fuck you. Fuck you. Well, you’re cool. But fuck you.

Kalvin 12:30
That’s also why 200 people were accused right to get off a lot of these people as they confess they had to admit that other people were there. So it was kind of a one for one deal. The kangaroo courts were not going to just be like, Alright, you can go we’re not going to be wrong on this site. And to give somebody else but you know, as the crucible teaches us, john Proctor would not put his name, sign his name to it. Take my freedom, but leave me my name. Because I’m all out in the crucible, everyone.

Unknown Speaker 13:01
I know bitch.

Kalvin 13:03
We’re gonna talk about the crucible later. Don’t worry everyone who’s here strictly for crucible input. We got to come in.

Nick 13:10
I mean, you got to come in.

Kalvin 13:12
I have read and seeing the crucible more than anyone ever should do either of those things. So

Nick 13:17
is this is it a movie?

Kalvin 13:19
Yeah, I told you why not a writer?

Unknown Speaker 13:20
Oh yeah.

Kalvin 13:22
Get 30 seconds Yeah,

Nick 13:24
the breasts

Kalvin 13:25
Yeah. Why don’t writer boob and the first 30 seconds of the crucible Daniel Day Lewis just like totally going over the top throughout the whole movie. That’s really all that’s interesting. The principal from Ferris Bueller’s Day Off is in there too. I know he’s a pedophile now, but like, he was really? Yeah, yeah,

Nick 13:43
no shit.

Kalvin 13:45
I mean, I think he was always a pedophile, but like he got convicted not too long ago.

Nick 13:50
I did not know that. That is terrifying. Good thing. I’ve never watched that movie. I don’t support pedophiles. The Crucible

Kalvin 13:57
or Ferris Bueller’s Day Off Ferris Bueller’s Day Off whoever that guy is missing out. So also quarrels with neighbors often inside to witchcraft allegation. So your goat is on my land. I’m gonna call you a witch. Yeah, again, that’s gonna happen. One example of this is Abigail Faulkner, who was accused in 1692. Faulkner admitted she was angry at what folks said and the devil may have temporarily overtaken her causing harm to her neighbors. Women who do not conform to the norms of Puritan society are more likely to be a target of an accusation, especially those who are unmarried and do not have children.

Unknown Speaker 14:33
Oh, are you saying

Kalvin 14:39
the poor women and the women who aren’t married they’re gonna be the ones being called witches. That’s weird.

Nick 14:44
never would have thought that opinions and self confidence and

Kalvin 14:49
just social outcast. Nobody wants to accuse the it’s easy to accuse the social outcast, right because nobody’s going to take her word over this married upstanding woman.

Nick 15:02
I mean, someone might. Not likely though,

Kalvin 15:06
as we learn about the church folk in colonial America,

Nick 15:10
yeah, they don’t play that bullshit.

Kalvin 15:12
Did you have any prominent figures who were accused? I mean,

Nick 15:17
I one of the most prominent in my opinion was George George George.

Kalvin 15:22

Nick 15:24
fucking Jaws, you know that 1690s jive talk came,

Kalvin 15:29
pronounced it

Nick 15:30
back then. George barrages. George Burroughs was a Puritan minister, and he was indicted and executed in sales shit in 1692. I mean, he was literally the Minister of Salem. This was everyone’s fucking homie. And they straight up killed them. Like that’s,

Kalvin 15:49
I think I read that that was that was one of those neighborly squabbles too, right is like that there was a lot of political upheaval in the town of Salem, like the

Nick 15:59
there’s like competing families,

Kalvin 16:00
right. And the ruling families like whoever the mayor and the head of the church was like they didn’t get along with these other prominent families. So prominent families would often like talk shit about the people who are running the town and the people that run in town, we talk shit about the rich people. And so it was it was very easy for these corals to overtake each other and to kind of start throwing stones at glass houses. Well, I

Nick 16:22
mean, they all started with a land dispute. It’s like, no, you’re over the line, bro. And it just kind of went from there. And people people out here dying.

Kalvin 16:33
The one I wanted to mention was Dorothy good. Who was like four or five years old when she was accused of witchcraft. He’s like, what are the fucking four year old do to you to be like, yeah, that that pitch

Nick 16:44
and then she rolled on her mom the one? Well, I

Unknown Speaker 16:47
would do. I mean, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 16:49
I’m four years old. I

Kalvin 16:50
need to get out of this. Yeah, mom’s fault.

Nick 16:53
Let me see Port Elizabeth though. She

Kalvin 16:54
was fucking pregnant. goody, good. That’s what they call them all. At least in the crucible they call

Nick 17:02
like fucking devil worshippers.

Kalvin 17:07
Why did they think these people were witches?

Nick 17:11
Because some young ladies flopped around on the floor and said, Dude, this is fucking infuriating. They said that they were attacked by the manifestation of said person even though they didn’t really have many details while they were sleeping or just standing there. Like, ah, I’m getting fucking attacked. Oh my god. You can’t see anything though. I’m not moving much. Well, yeah, the doctor

Kalvin 17:37
even came and checked them out and was like, Nah, they’re cool. Yeah, there’s

Nick 17:40
physically nothing wrong with them. But the devil might be around. It’s like she sold it really well, though. She even picked herself up all over. And I mean, she got some people riled up. Several of these young ladies did well, so

Kalvin 17:57
Elizabeth Hubbard, 17 year old was like the ringleader of it all. And then it was Abigail Williams. So she was there too, and Betty Paris. So Abigail Williams is one known writers character in the crucible. But Abigail and Betty were the first to to kind of start throwing accusations but I think Elizabeth Hubbard kind of became the ringleader of everything as being the oldest that was in there. So these two are the daughter and the niece of Reverend Samuel Parris. And they began to have these fits described as beyond the power of epileptic fits or natural disease. by the Minister of nearby town of Beverly john Hale. Girl screen through things about the room uttered strange sounds crawled on their furniture and contorted themselves into killer positions complained to being pinched and prick with pins and then the doctor check them out. But like, at no point did anyone go like these girls are fake. They’re just making mischief.

Nick 18:54
I guarantee you if my wife was there at the time, she would have been like because she used to they call them pseudo seizures, pseudo seizures. And she’d see that all the time in her profession and she the way she exploded

Kalvin 19:06
I fully believe this stuff

Nick 19:08
exists. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist. But the the sheer unbelievable guilty of some of most of these people so like 97% of people. She was like, Yeah, I knew as soon as they started doing that, that was their Fuck, you can tell

Kalvin 19:22
which one is fake and which ones are right. So

Unknown Speaker 19:25
it’s, you know, well, and so like, it

Kalvin 19:27
always makes me think I believe it was the Exorcism of Emily Rose. Is that the one where she like it’s the college girl.

Nick 19:32
Yeah, fuck that movie.

Kalvin 19:34
And like, I always think about that movie. My my college girlfriend made me watch it, because I really like horror movies. But like, I always think how weird it would be like you’re a college dude. And this girl just like starts having these seizures where her body gets contorted into ways that shouldn’t like, I don’t know that I think she’s possessed with the devil, but I wouldn’t be dating her anymore for sure. Like I’m at 20 years old. I am not equipped to handle that.

Nick 20:01
Yeah, right dude a 20 year like, Okay, this is presenting all new opportunities for me. All right, we’re gonna wait

Kalvin 20:07
till you’re in the middle of a fit. We’re

Nick 20:09
gonna get it sounds terrible.

Kalvin 20:11
Yeah, it’s bad. So here’s, here’s what I’m thinking that I very highly doubt that they were actually possessed by the devil, right? So let’s let’s put that out there as possible they’re faking right, just completely 100% bullshit like these are just young girls, they’re trying to have some fun, you know, the crucible sets it up as they got caught doing like doing this dancing and fake kind of

Nick 20:41
gyrating with their hips.

Kalvin 20:43
Well, yeah, dancing was outlawed at the time in the area, and they’re out in the woods, dancing and in the movie makes it look like there’s this, this sacrifice the sacrificial ritual going on with tituba, which we’ll talk about tituba in a little bit, but so they got the the movie in the play, show them getting caught doing that. So then they kind of go into the state as a reaction to that to like, maybe try and keep themselves out of trouble. And I think like, it’s a little bit of that, and it just kind of spirals out of their control. And once people start believing them, they’re gonna keep going, they have this little bit of power, and they’re just gonna kind of grasp onto it. But like, could this also be, you know, early signs of schizophrenia, things like that, where they are having these reactions and 1600s nobody knows what schizophrenia is.

Nick 21:32
No, I mean, they, I mean, by definition, schizophrenia, that’s witchcraft.

Kalvin 21:38
Well, exactly. So do you do you are you thinking along that line of it’s, it’s something mental health related? Or is it just they’re full of shit?

Nick 21:48
I’m leaning more towards they’re full of shit. Like, which could have, you know, a mental health connotation for the sole fact like the attention seeking stuff like that,

Kalvin 21:59
right? Kind of borderline personality sort of type stuff, rather than, like actual lightning. That’s an actual mental

Nick 22:05
sociopath, maybe like a complete lack of empathy they have for the I mean, it’s a small community, you know, going

Kalvin 22:12
in that that accusing someone of being a witch is like basically the death penalty. So

Nick 22:18
what’s gonna ruin their lives? Exactly. They don’t die. So it’s, you’re really fucking some people over here. And you know, I feel like an 11 year old. I’m just going with what’s her faces? Age, Abigail Williams. Yeah, yes. If you you think should have a little empathy but especially being Puritan apparently not.

Kalvin 22:42
There. Like maybe it starts out as like a way to you know, put a dagger in some of these family squabbles that are going on. And then I think it started as something smaller. It was either they’re messing around or they have these family squabbles that they’re kind of trying to, you know, do the fan oh snap on, I just want to end this shit. And so so they do this and then it just kind of spirals out of control because other young women in the village start to do the same thing. You know, either they’re, they’re in on the joke or this is kind of where the idea of mass hysteria takes over. Or they see okay, this girl got a little bit of power from accusing this person. Let me start doing it. It’s not that hard to fake. You know what’s going on? to fake these kind of fits?

Nick 23:29
Well, and at the same time once those people got snatched up by the Puritan just stop Oh, Pete their shit was like free getting you know, free rein. You just come back.

Kalvin 23:40
Right? So you say all right, my dress. My neighbor’s got some stuff I want. They will let me borrow it. Alright, your which Duncan,

Nick 23:49
Tobias has that snowblower? I’m trying to get.

Kalvin 23:53
Asshole, Tobias.

Nick 23:54
Yeah, Timothy.

Kalvin 23:57
So I think like this kind of reverse placebo effect took place a little bit as well. They see some girls acting this way. So they start doing it more or less hallucinating their own effects. And because they’re proven instances of this working, they’re now validated and then their brain kind of takes the wheel outside of their control and fills in the blanks for them so so these I don’t know that they’re fully hallucinating but they can kind of let their brain go wild a little bit. And your brain can do some pretty crazy shit especially when there’s no other form of entertainment in puritanical. Massachusetts, right?

Nick 24:32
Like you’re all dirty and read

Kalvin 24:34
the Bible and play with a fucking straw doll. That’s all you got.

Nick 24:39
Sounds exhilarating. Yeah, your your brain

Kalvin 24:41
is probably got totally crazy shit.

Nick 24:44
I mean, I would I would go insane if I didn’t have toilet paper. Just throw that out there.

Kalvin 24:49
On it’s like if you go in like the sensory deprivation chambers, right, your brain noise No, I wouldn’t want to do it either. Very strange, but your brain will start playing tricks on you and you’ll start hallucinating. Other things, I think there’s a bit of of that going on where these girls might have actually been experiencing some effects of kind of the history that goes along with it. And because you’re validated by the people like Alex, Abigail Williams and Betty Paris, you’re thinking, Okay, I’m actually possessed because they’re possessed. And so it turns into this this echo chamber of witches be real,

Nick 25:25
which is be happening? Well, it’d be a self fulfilling prophecy too, because if any 910 11 year old girl shit even me as a 28 year old man, if I legitimately thought I was like, possessive, so that would terrify me. So I think that would just feed into the performances as well. You know, they kind of sub consciously get started and then are just, you know, get some dry kindling on the fire with fear. Yeah, I can see it being kind of convincing. Me Exactly.

Kalvin 25:56
And I’ve got some some specific examples of the type of people who were targeted and why they were targeted why they were thought to actually be witches. The first three people accused and arrested for afflicting Betty parents and Abigail Williams and Ann Putnam Jr. and Elizabeth Hubbard or Sarah good sir, I was born and teachable, teachable was the first. Some historians believe that the acquisition of an Putnam suggests that a Family Feud may have been a major cause of the witch trials. At the time, a vicious rivalry was underway between the Putnam and Porter families, one of which deeply polarized the city, the people of Salem citizens would often have heated debates, which escalated into full fledged fighting based solely on their opinion of this feud. So basically, it is hilarious. Yeah, basically, like, I believe it was Sarah Osborne like their family. And so she just threw her under the bus and was like, boom, I got all these people at my back. Let’s go. And let’s fist

Nick 26:52
fight. On the street, a bunch of Puritan people fistfight, and that’s probably boring as fuck. No dice.

Kalvin 27:01
Sarah good, was a destitute woman accused of witchcraft because of her reputation at the trial. She was accused of rejecting periods and ideals of self control and discipline when she chose torment and scorned the children instead of leading them towards the path of salvation. So she just started yelling at the kids who were accusing her while she was in her trial.

Unknown Speaker 27:21
Which Good for her. Okay, shitheads I’m gonna die because you probably

Kalvin 27:26
I’m on Sarah. Good side here, I think.

Unknown Speaker 27:29
I mean, yeah, dude, I’d be fuckin pissed.

Kalvin 27:32
Sarah Osborne was the next she rarely attended church meetings. She was accused of witchcraft because the Puritans believed that Osborn had her own self interests in mind following her remarriage to an indentured servant. Citizens of town disapproved of her trying to draw her son’s inheritance from her previous marriage. So they didn’t like that she was making her own choices.

Nick 27:51
Goddamn women making choices for themselves on on roulette,

Kalvin 27:55
we shouldn’t let them get away. That was the the first that was pointed out. She was enslaved South American Indian woman from the West Indies, likely became a target because of her ethnic differences from most of the other villagers. She was accused of attracting girls like Abigail Williams and Betty Paris was stories and enchantment from malleus maleficarum. These tales about sexual encounters with demons swaying the minds of men and fortune telling, or said to sit stimulate the imaginations of girls and made to Jabba an obvious target of the accusations. And this is kind of where the crucible opens up, is it that they’re all out in the woods and tituba is kind of leading this ritual and all the girls are trying to cast spells more or less to attract the men or boys that they like. And that’s where they get caught. And then they start having these fits. But it mostly boiled down. It seemed like to Family Feud, class differences and good old racism.

Nick 28:53
Good old racism in checks kind of just being checks. Yeah, just hate each other. For some reason. It’s really weird.

Kalvin 29:01
Yeah, I mean, that it comes down to that sometimes, and I don’t think you can have any bad part of American history without having racism thrown in there.

Nick 29:13
Pretty much

Kalvin 29:16
out we’re gonna we’re gonna get all these right wing hate mails of trying to teach critical race theory on our podcast here.

Nick 29:21
I mean, they hadn’t fired him off yet. For the first you know, 15 References we made sure there are fewer than I don’t think they’re gonna.

Kalvin 29:31
You guys are assholes. move on with your lives.

Unknown Speaker 29:35
Lost losers.

Kalvin 29:38
So how did they go about determining that people were witches, Nick, you know that they had really fascinating. Oh, wait, did you have any other reasons why they thought people were witches?

Nick 29:50
Really, I think that we haven’t nailed it on the head.

Kalvin 29:52
Yeah, it’s always racism. Well, and some sexism thrown in an accident or

Nick 29:57
like really poor and use smell a little bit. I don’t like that.

Unknown Speaker 30:01
Yep. You’re ready.

Unknown Speaker 30:04
You’re ready.

Kalvin 30:05
So how did they go about determining if a person was a witch or not?

Nick 30:09
Man, they had foolproof ways, my friend. I wish I had the thought process like this because I would solve so many more problems in my life. Well, unreal,

Kalvin 30:19
would you would you solve problems? Or would you come up with answers to problems that aren’t really answers to those problems, but they pacify enough for me?

Nick 30:27
Yeah, that’s all it matters. Fuck everyone else.

Kalvin 30:29
That’s really what was going on. They weren’t they weren’t solving the problem witchcraft, but they gave they gave people some some executions and everyone was happy. Yeah, they’re like, okay, pupils, of course.

Nick 30:39
I get that bitches dress. Fuck, too. So they had things like the swimming test, which was very, I mean, I think swimming. Okay, it’s very sweet. But they kind of did a little Hanky Panky with it, they took your finger and they tied it to the opposite toe, and then threw you in a body of water sometimes in a sack. And if you floated, you were a witch. And if you drowned, you’re innocent. So at least your name was cleared. You know,

Kalvin 31:12
good for you. Yeah.

Nick 31:14
You really, you’re really lucky that we close your name. Okay, so don’t ask questions and just be thankful

Kalvin 31:20
as you plummet to your death in the shallow lake that you can’t swim out.

Nick 31:24
Don’t you fucking pop up. I swear that God will bash over the school. They also had which cakes?

Kalvin 31:31
Also which cakes?

Nick 31:33
Yeah, which cakes are fascinating my friends. So what they are is they are peice cakes. Basically there which case which cakes peice cakes. So they take just flour and P of the accused and baking into a cake and let her kitchen get all pissed smell. And it’s gonna be fucking witches piss on the word cloud. And then they fed it to a dog, which would reveal the witch because of their association with the devil.

Kalvin 32:01
Valley. And at some point, during one of these tribunals that came up they decided that the witch cake was not a good way to determine if someone was a witch and pretty much said we can’t be going to the devil for help against the devil. So peeing in the cake was was not a good way to to figure that out. So that they came around on that one, apparently,

Nick 32:21
why don’t they start? They’re just like, Yeah, I don’t know if that’s probably the best way to go about this peak cake. It they also had if a witch touched the people having the little fits, and they stopped having the fits, then they’re all good. You know, no problem. They’re witches.

Kalvin 32:42
Well, I also feel like that. Yeah, if they touch them, and they stop having the fits there. Which right? Is that what it is? Correct? Yeah. I’m pretty sure this is pretty easy to fake in that tribunal as well. Right? And if they really know that that’s what they’re trying to prove. And you don’t like that lady. As soon as she touches you, you’re going to stop? Well,

Nick 33:01
you think you’d at least blindfold them and apparently that rarely happen.

Kalvin 33:05
It says several the cues later recounted that they were brought blindfolded hands were laid upon the afflicted persons. They being in their fits and falling into their fits at are coming into their presence, as they said, Oh Shea let us to lay hands upon them. And then they said they were well and that we were guilty of afflicting them, whereupon we were all seized as prisoners.

Nick 33:27
sucker. Man, that would suck. I would just leave. like fuck all that noise. I would just bounce.

Kalvin 33:36
We’re gonna we’re gonna talk about what you would do. At the end. Nick.

Unknown Speaker 33:39
Got a whole section lots to say about what I would do.

Kalvin 33:43
Yeah, so usually someone was accused and then they would, they’d be accused they’d be arrested. Then they go before some sort of tribunal held by local magistrates. These tribunals lead to further accusations and further examinations of community members. Anybody who got accused of being a witch start pointing out other people obviously. After some concluded that a loss, illness or death had been caused by witchcraft, the accuser entered a complaint against the alleged witch with the local magistrates of the complaint complaint was deemed credible. magistrates had a person the person arrested and brought in for public examination, which they pretty much just said everything was credible. Like honestly, they didn’t they weren’t turning anyone away.

Nick 34:20
There. They were, like actively paying people. Yeah, round up some witches bitches. Give them a

Kalvin 34:27
magistrate that this local level were satisfied that the complaint was well founded. The prisoner was handed over to be dealt with by a superior court in 1692. The magistrates opted to wait for the arrival of new charter and governor who would establish the court of oyer and terminer. To handle these cases. Next step at the superior court level was to summon witnesses before the grand jury, and these witnesses would present evidence in the types of testing or the Yeah, heavy heavy air quotes. Touch test was used the which cake test was used also spectrum evidence was allowed my phone. Yeah, so this was a testimony of the afflicted who claimed to see an apparition, or the shape of a person who was allegedly afflicting, afflicting them. The theological dispute that ensued about the use of this evidence was based on whether a person had to give permission to the devil for his or her shape to be used to afflict. Opponents claim that the devil was able to use any one shape to afflict people. But the court contended that the devil could not use a person shape without that person’s permission. Therefore, when a flicked a person claimed to see the aberration of a specific person that was accepted as evidence that the accused had been complicit with the devil. So there you go.

Nick 35:41
They had lots of round

Kalvin 35:42
I saw Mary Sue with the devil, therefore she’s with the devil. She’s with the devil. For sure. I’ve never made up a story. And so that’s the only thing these people just believe them, because why would children lie? Like they could not? That 12 year olds would just fucking lie to people. Oh, I mean, fuck.

Nick 36:02
That’s like all I did as a 12 year old was. Lie. Yeah, and everything.

Kalvin 36:06
You clean 1600s Puritan girl though, Nick.

Nick 36:13
Maybe I was. Maybe I was reincarnated as a 28 year old Midwestern man. In 21.

Kalvin 36:20
Other evidence included the confessions of the accused testimony by the confessed witch who identified other witches or other people as witches, discovery of puppets. books have palmistry and horoscopes or pots of ointments in the possession or home of EQ so no white mitts for you if you got an ointment Fuck you. Yeah, observation of what we’re called the witches teats on the body of an accused is another form of evidence which this is just like a mole or blemish somewhere on the body that was sensitive, insensitive touch, discovery of such in sensitive areas was considered de facto evidence of witchcraft

Nick 36:54
news to feed their familiar so it’s like you got a mold you feed animals blood because you’re aware. I love the prick test to Oh, I

Kalvin 37:03
didn’t see that one.

Nick 37:04
Yeah, basically, they would poke you. And if you bled, you were a witch. Oh, that’s right. If you are no if you didn’t bleed, you are a witch.

Kalvin 37:14
So there is this cat glad you’re a witch, right? It’s always the easiest solution makes you a witch. The thing that’s supposed to happen is what makes you a witch.

Nick 37:22
Well, I’m pretty sure is if you did not bleed. You were a witch because this dude in Scotland, made a fucking killing going around telling people that and he had a knife with a retractable blade, and was like so and he panicked. And like, oh, you’re a word. Like shitload of people died because of that.

Kalvin 37:47
person could be indicted on charges afflicted with witchcraft or making an unlawful covenant with the devil so that’s what they were that’s what they’re charging these people for once indicted, that defendant went to trial, sometimes on the same day as in the case of the first person died and try it on June 2 purchase bit Bridget Bishop who was executed Eight days later.

Nick 38:05
I feel like they just wanted to have her stop talking. Cuz she sounded like a Spitfire and I love her. She sounded great. I found like a book that detailed each individual person’s like, last couple days.

Kalvin 38:19
Is it john Hales book? I don’t read that a lot on Wikipedia. He was like the he was like the the Reverend from the next town over or whatever.

Nick 38:27
I did find knows it was more

Kalvin 38:30
like more recent book.

Nick 38:31
Yeah. And I mean, I did find it through a link on on Wikipedia. So I should probably have found that it was really fascinating. Apparently, she was just a Spitfire man. sounded great. And they’re like, we gotta go shut this lady up. Can’t have this. Not 1690. No way.

Kalvin 38:50
It always seemed to me that the people running these tribunals pretty much just decided on a whim and kind of these other cultural influences. If someone who was accused should be charged or not with being a witch, it was more or less just through some people’s accusations a way to seem fair, like anybody who they’re like, Nah, you’re not a witch. They’re just doing it. So they didn’t look like they’re just wanting to kill everybody.

Nick 39:13
We’re not playing favorites.

Kalvin 39:14
Yeah. I gotta say, No, she’s not a witch.

Nick 39:19
She was kind of hot. So we’re not going to but her husband.

Kalvin 39:25
He is a witch. And he’s got to be hanged. And now. Yes. So I can call her up after this.

Nick 39:31
I hear she’s rich too. So well, she will

Kalvin 39:34
be after husband dies.

Nick 39:36
Yeah, we got to make sure that’s the big one. That fuckin which I can’t stand up. Oh, I hate him so much. Especially that one guy.

Kalvin 39:44
So with the people that served on these tribunals like the judges, more or less, do you think that they actually believe that the accused were possessed? Or did they kind of know this was all bullshit and just like the power and influence so much that they can I kept this ruse going with it. What do you think about that?

Nick 40:02
I honestly think they they completely believed in this because if their judges and magistrates have a Puritan community, they’re probably the most pious and at least view themselves as such. So, you know, I think that would equate to just blind faith really well,

Kalvin 40:19
there are a lot of things that the science at the time couldn’t explain. So the the easy answer was always Well, that’s the devil’s work. So yeah, I get that. I’m just wondering, like, did they think, like, Okay, this same with what I was saying about the girls earlier, I think it just be like one or two people, and then the whole thing just snowballed out of their control, and they couldn’t contain it. So like these first two people, yeah, they’re witches, because they’re witches. But after that, you know, they, they couldn’t just stop themselves and lose their positions of power. Now that all these people are being accused, they want to stay at the top of that power Totem. And if if they didn’t, if they were just like, No, none of these other 200 people are witches, their constituents aren’t gonna like that. They’re gonna think they’re ineffective and like, vote them out or, or playing their witches. Yeah, kill him.

Nick 41:06
But I honestly, I think they enjoyed it, like a good chunk of them, I think genuinely enjoyed being this basically like warriors of God, you’re judging demons. They’re slaying demons, basically, in their minds. I think they fucking got off on that.

Kalvin 41:23
But I think it’s part like at the beginning, they thought they were helping they thought they were doing the Lord’s work, you know, they were doing what they’re supposed to. They didn’t know any better. Why would these young girls lie? Like we already talked about that? You know, it wasn’t a thing for kids to lie in the late 1600s. But I think eventually, they bought into their own hype, kind of like you were saying, they truly believe that they’re doing God’s work. And it didn’t matter. Because they said that they that the devil was in these women. So the devil was in these women. They were the only ones at this point that could save the town from the devil. And so they had to keep going. They had to keep their mission from God going

Nick 41:58
on. I feel airlines. They had to fulfill their words as authority figures. Right? I mean, when you buy into that bullshit, that’s, I think that’s a whole nother shindig topic. I mean, you could over

Kalvin 42:14
over a whole year, none of them stopped to think like, there’s no way all these people are possessed by Yeah,

Nick 42:20
I mean, fuck What’s going on here? I must be a kind of weak deck. psych. I’m gonna kill everybody.

Kalvin 42:26
Yeah, have you scared the devil out of here by now we’ve killed so many people. No, only I couldn’t come up with, like, I just have a I have a hard time believing that the quote unquote smart people of the time. Couldn’t kind of see through that at some point. This is bullshit.

Nick 42:43
I’m sure they could. But then you get some people are just so convincing. And also you do not want to die.

Kalvin 42:52
And you don’t want to lose their authority. Yeah.

Nick 42:54
Well, they I mean, yeah, I guess losing your authority definitely equates to I mean, there’s

Kalvin 42:59
people who still think that somebody won the 2020 election that clearly didn’t.

Nick 43:04
Well, they I love the fact that they keep putting the timeline back to me a fourth. You know, he’ll be he’ll be back.

Kalvin 43:13
By 2097. We’ll have the shit worked out. Stay tuned.

Nick 43:17
We’ll have it figured out got all the

Kalvin 43:19
evidence here. Rudy Giuliani’s got it in the my pillow guy they’ve got it all. will bring it to light soon. Don’t worry.

Nick 43:26
You’ll get your invite for the new social media platform soon, bro. So you just keep in. Keep being American.

Kalvin 43:33
I guess. Yeah. With his his new and is a little bit of a tangent. He has this new website where he he basically tweets to himself, and anyone who looks at the website through his own platform, and he tried to build a Twitter account for the website that would just like repost whatever he put on the website, and it got suspended already. Love it.

Unknown Speaker 43:56
I think that’s like, Yeah, no, we

Kalvin 43:57
know what you’re doing here. dipshit

Nick 43:59
Yes, you should stop that. Right. Me. Yeah.

Kalvin 44:03
So back to the witches. Do you have any other evidence that they would collect on these witches? Before we get to you know what they actually did with the witches? No, I

Nick 44:13
mean, not really. They would just

Kalvin 44:15
yeah, I think we hit a nail that. They basically said you’re a witch and you’re a witch.

Nick 44:22
I was like, if these women did anything, if they sneezed wash. Which, if I got a witch

Kalvin 44:32
so what do they do to the witches? Nick, you alluded to this earlier. Here’s your time to shine. What happened to these ladies? And some at noon?

Nick 44:41
I mean, well, these poor ladies and one dude.

Kalvin 44:47
I’ve five dudes. Well, really? Yeah.

Nick 44:52
Maybe there’s more. I you know, I don’t don’t really remember. 30 of these people. Both were found guilty. And then 19 of whom were executed by hanging. And something I found because I listened to the the History Channel documentary on YouTube, which is like an hour and six minutes. And they it was it was decent, but, I mean, honestly, it was just like, really dumb. They hyped it up so much that like, could the site of the Salem Witch Trials be behind this brewery? Like, I don’t give a shit, dude. Like, fucking for real

Unknown Speaker 45:33
random shit. Oh, dude, they

Nick 45:35
were so excited. They’re like, we really get to stretch this movie out. But there was a lot. There’s one guy was just, his eyes are all wide. He’s like sweating while he’s talking about it’s like, yeah, this wasn’t, you know, this wasn’t a hanging. This was a strangulation. So what they did is they rolled them off the ladder, instead of dropping them at a distance. They would basically have like, four inches of rope attached to a log. And you would die from that. Wow. Yeah, very, very tough. And then one other man geils Cory was pressed to death for refusing to plead guilty. And five others died in jail. But I want to speak a little more about geils Cory because this dude had a nut sack on him like nobody’s business

Kalvin 46:22
serious. Sticking with the hard g on geils because it’s probably Giles. The iOS Cory it’s just like yeah, just like Jeff. Yeah. Are gift No. Dammit. Yes. Last

Unknown Speaker 46:34
fucking when

Kalvin 46:37
I’m just gonna cut that.

Nick 46:40
I already helped you with your trickery of deleting my voice.

Unknown Speaker 46:46
But not censor me.

Nick 46:48
You will not I will not be censored canceled culture canceled.

Kalvin 46:53
I reserve the right pronounce a soft g en GIF.

Nick 46:58
Well, not only that, I get to reserve the right to say that you’re wrong and then try to convince everyone that it’s true.

Kalvin 47:04
Alright, let’s talk about Mr. Corey.

Nick 47:06
Mr. Cory. So pressing is a really bad way to go. So they basically the lay you down on a hard surface with a piece of wood or a flat surface. And then they start piling stones on top of you and slowly crush you to death. And this fucking guy. So this guy last words were more weight. And then he died. So kind of give it to him when

Kalvin 47:34
he went down is not a witch for for damn sure.

Nick 47:37
Well, he didn’t give anybody up. He’s not gonna plead guilty. I know god damn witch.

Kalvin 47:44
No, and I think he was one of those like land dispute guys, too, if I remember correctly. Yeah, guys, Cory was just got like, thrown in there because somebody is pissed off at him.

Nick 47:52
He wasn’t super loved. And there was another individual who said the Lord’s Prayer. It was it was a man. That was

Kalvin 47:57
john Roger.

Nick 47:58
Yeah, yes. Yes. JOHN Proctor.

Kalvin 48:02
And Amanda is like Day Lewis in the movie.

Nick 48:04
Oh, I don’t think he’s supposed to be able to do that. And all the religious people like yeah, oh, yeah. That’s the devil for sure. The devil could do it. Anyone else? No, no, but the devil.

Kalvin 48:15
Yeah. So I had the 19 people that were executed by hanging including john Proctor, 14 more women, five were men. Four different execution dates with one person executed on June 10 1692. That was a Betty. whatever her name was.

Nick 48:32
Betty Crocker?

Kalvin 48:34
No, not Betty Crocker.

Nick 48:36
Betty page.

Kalvin 48:37
Bridget bishop. Bridget Bridget the patient.

Nick 48:39
We were way off there. Yeah,

Kalvin 48:41
it started with a B though.

Unknown Speaker 48:44

Kalvin 48:47
Fiber executed on July 19 1692. So just a month later, that was Sarah good. Rebecca nurses Anna Martin. Elizabeth how and Sarah Wilds another five executed on August 19. So it’s like every month or just like let’s get some let’s fucking hang some people guys. That was Martha carrier john Willard George Burroughs, George Jacobs and john Proctor, your boy.

Unknown Speaker 49:07
Poor john Proctor.

Kalvin 49:09
And final eight. We’re on September 22 1692. That was Mary eastie, Martha Corrie and pewter Samuel Wardell Mary Parker Alice Parker Wilmot red and Margaret Scott. several others including Elizabeth Proctor and Abigail Faulkner were convicted but given temporary reproduce because they were pregnant. were to go bethy Proctor.

Nick 49:32
Yeah, they just threw him in prison instead.

Kalvin 49:35
five other women were convicted in 1692. But the death sentence was never carried out. That’s Mary Bradbury, and foster who died in prison. Mary Lacey was Foster’s daughter Dorcas four and Abigail hops,

Nick 49:48
which was the governor’s wife.

Kalvin 49:54
That happened it wasn’t Rebecca nurse. She was the old lady Welcome to the names here. eastie. Maybe

Nick 50:03
when it happens to them, they’re like, Oh, fuck, we gotta shut this down.

Kalvin 50:07
Yeah. That’s it’s all been bullshit the whole time. Nope, we’re good.

Nick 50:11
We’re good. psych, psych, psych.

Kalvin 50:13
And some of the people as we said earlier, they confessed and we’re kind of allowed to be free and reintegrated into society if they repented and also, you know, name some names. They had that that was their way out pretty much.

Unknown Speaker 50:26
Yeah, and if you don’t

Kalvin 50:29
we’re gonna crush you to death.

Nick 50:30
Yeah, more weight, bitches. That is such I’m still like, this guy. fucks.

Unknown Speaker 50:37
You already know? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 50:41
fo sho,

Nick 50:43
fo sho he’s

Kalvin 50:46
fucking those rocks.

Nick 50:49
Kid fuck by the rocks. Or guy.

Kalvin 50:52
What would you do? Nick? We’re going to talk about this is the last segment of our podcasts. We’re going to talk about kind of what we do in the situation or how it’s affected us in our lives. So we’ve kind of already touched on this. You did not read the crucible to your recollection in high school or haven’t seen the movie? Correct?

Nick 51:08
Correct. I’m sure it was assigned to me. But I’m guessing I threw that shit right in my locker and never opened it. A crucible is

Kalvin 51:16
a play written by Arthur Miller of Death of a Salesman Fein. Ah, yeah. Good old already. So if you haven’t read it, so I’ve read the crucible three times in middle school in high school, or I was assigned to read it three times. By the third time I just fell asleep in class every one of those times ever every day during that, like two weeks that we were going through it because

Nick 51:39
Have you ever heard of sparknotes?

Kalvin 51:42
Well, I mean, like in seventh grade, I was actually interested in read the assigned work. So I read it. Then in ninth grade, I kind of just like skimmed it and tried to remember the parts, you know. And then by 11th grade, I was like now, I’ve done it twice, but I’m good. So it was assigned three different times in school, seventh grade, ninth grade, and 11th grade. I’m not sure why my English teachers thought it was so important that we need to read it that much. What I can say is I went to a public school in seventh grade and then transferred to a private school for high school. So like night set between seventh and ninth grade, I was at a different school. So maybe it just wasn’t part of the curriculum until ninth grade in the new school. But then I was in the same school for ninth and 11th grade. So I don’t know why we redid it there. But like, Fuck the crucible, okay. I just

Nick 52:26
ran out of shit to give you in a private school. Can’t have you read Catcher in the Rye? That’s no go. No, we

Kalvin 52:33
did read that too.

Nick 52:35
You know, in 11th grade, you were like, Hey, Mom, I gotta rent this movie. Because Mike had already seen the movie

Kalvin 52:41
twice. By then, too. We watched the movie both times.

Nick 52:45
100 times? Oh, you showed it in school.

Kalvin 52:48
So in seventh grade the because it was just the one scene right at the beginning. So in seventh grade. I think both. We just skipped like the first minute. And they’re like, this is what happens there in the woods having a sacrifice. Here we go.

Nick 53:03
So you want a bird’s eye like boobs? And then before you know there’s a goddamn riot.

Kalvin 53:11
That’s exactly what happened. How did you know?

Nick 53:14
I mean, I just have this intuition. I’m getting my senses are telling me. So you might be a witch.

Kalvin 53:23
As I say, fuck the crucible. It’s only because I had to read it that many times. It’s actually if you only read it once and watch the movie once. It’s pretty interesting. The 1996 movie with Wynonna writer and Daniel Day Lewis is pretty solid too. I did just rewatch it. So I’ve seen that now four times. Because I just rewatch it because I was kind of like half remembering all the stuff that happened. And I definitely didn’t want to go back and read the play again. But the movie does such a good job of capturing the play because that’s kind of an easy transition to make from play to movie that that did the job for me. And I’m pretty sure in 11th grade, I probably slept through it again. That was like my first thing that ever fell asleep during school for was reading the crucible. And my English teacher called me out and I’m like, I’ve read I’ve done it twice. Like I know what’s going on. Give me the test. I’ll fucking do it and then leave me alone. And that’s what happened. Oh, Eastern shit. I

Nick 54:14
can tell you the exact second that boob appears.

Kalvin 54:21
So yeah, as I’m like reading through all this, I’m recalling the movie and the play in the back of my mind and kind of like, they use the names of all the real people they like they really play it up as a real thing. And I think they do a good job of portraying what it was really like how the girls bought into the hysteria how it could snowball, you know, one accusation into another. And it also kind of captured the terror of the citizens that they might be the next one. They might be the next accused because they said or did something wrong to one of the accusers.

Nick 54:50
Like Please don’t kill me, please.

Kalvin 54:55
And you know that they both do a good job of setting the kind of religious and local structural support wobbling around it as well. It’s not just like these girls got up one day and decided to start accusing people, it’s they did this thing in the woods. Then they accuse somebody that they didn’t like. And then the next person accused somebody that was feuding with their family. And then the one girl had an affair with john Proctor. So she accused his wife and like that kind of stuff. It sets up Abigail Williams was kind of behind the whole thing. She was threatening others to go along so people didn’t find out what she was really up to. I think that was more to kind of give Wynonna writer more to do because she played Abigail Williams and Abigail Williams in real life was like 11 or 12. And they aged up to 1718.

Unknown Speaker 55:40

Kalvin 55:41
No, that was the other one. Betty Paris was nine. And Abigail Williams was like 11. Okay. So they had to kind of like they were going more to give her stuff to do rather than, like, strict historical context. And it never seems like mass hysteria. It was more it always felt in the movie in the play, that it was mass. This is how I can get away with this shit. Have you know it has it just, it seemed like these girls got caught doing something they weren’t supposed to. And they found a way out of it by just lying for a year and getting a bunch of people killed. It didn’t seem like hysteria took them over. It seemed like she got away with it. So I can get away with it. She got what she wanted out of it. I can get what I want out of it. It’s my turn. That’s at least how the play in the movie build it up.

Nick 56:35
Well, did we even mention the mold thing?

Unknown Speaker 56:38
The mold? Yeah. No,

Nick 56:41
yeah, one of the things I think contributed to the mass hysteria was ergot poisoning, which is basically a mold that grows on wheat, like flour, and you know, raw wheat and stuff like that. That really gets going and like warm human springs, especially prevalent Massachusetts. And it causes hallucinations, paranoia. All kinds of

Kalvin 57:07
historians are thinking

Nick 57:08
that this is what’s going on. Basically, there was they had a lot of leftover wheat from the winter. And as they went in spring, it had been, you know, infected with this fungus. And as they bake bread and stuff like that, and pass in everyone, you know, ate this product, because at the time bread was a majority of their diet.

Kalvin 57:27
Hmm. That’s interesting. Yeah, I didn’t look too much on like. So we probably should have done more research on that, or I should have have what now people think actually caused it. Because I think that’s interesting. We’re kind of talking more about what happened, and the thought processes of the people at the time, but what are historians looking back at it think is actually going on? And I think that’s a really interesting point. And this has nothing to do with anything but I thought it was interesting that I read on the IMDB page while I was watching the movie. So Abby Williams is 12 at the time of the actual events, but they aged up to 17 for the crucible in the play, because Arthur Miller wanted her to have an affair with john Proctor to mirror his own adulterous relationship with Marilyn Monroe.

Unknown Speaker 58:19

Kalvin 58:20
So this play right is just out here digging down the President’s girl and writing about it.

Nick 58:27
That’s I mean, that can be hurtful for the President.

Kalvin 58:30
I mean, Marilyn Monroe’s got got like a record here. I’m not slut shaming like she’s she’s got some Awan matchups.

Nick 58:39
She really does do she didn’t fuck around.

Kalvin 58:41
I mean, she did clearly know what I’m sorry, Arthur Miller, JFK, come on. Joe DiMaggio. All these

Unknown Speaker 58:52
fuck sloppy 48.

Kalvin 58:56
And it was also written during and heavily influenced by the McCarthy era Red Scare in America, which was, you know, the communist witch hunt. And it kind of all makes total sense why Arthur Miller Miller would write this at the time because he was even brought before one of these Red Scare tribunals and asked to name names and in Hollywood and things like that, and he wouldn’t do it.

Nick 59:20
He’s like, I know, bitch.

Kalvin 59:23
About kind of kind of to reflect his own experience, which I thought that was kind of interesting.

Nick 59:28
That is kind of interesting. He’s like, how do you like back Kennedy? You fuck.

Kalvin 59:35
Okay, so now that’s all I have on the crucible. If anybody else has seen the crucible this many times or read it this many times, let me know. I feel for you. It’s hard.

Nick 59:45
But it’s interesting. Someone that’s like, I read the crucible 385 times. It was quite

Kalvin 59:52
spicy. You’re probably a witch.

Nick 59:55
Dang Calvin’s out here thrown shot.

Kalvin 1:00:00
So Nick, if you were around in the 1600s, what would you have done? Would you have gone along with the trials? We’ve tried to stop them and you just played dumb? Like, what is your thought process I had? I’m a 1600s. Dude. Out here making some wheat in Salem, and all this shits going down.

Nick 1:00:17
I’d move the fuck away.

Kalvin 1:00:19
That was my right answer.

Nick 1:00:20
Yeah, I would be like, No, no, Fuck this.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:23
I’m gonna deal with it. Yeah, no,

Nick 1:00:24
I’m fucking good. Dude, I ain’t playing any of that bullshit. As soon as they stop

Kalvin 1:00:30
rolling, easy to just like pack up and move in the 1600s though.

Nick 1:00:34
I will fucking walk off. I don’t even care. I mean, I’m willing to do it. I don’t give a fuck. But yeah, that’s that’s my strong agree.

Kalvin 1:00:43
Yeah, just like I’m adding you guys do what you want. Like, I think I would have tried to tell people that they’re being dumb and probably got myself accused, most likely by telling people they’re dumb. But I would have done it like, on my way out. I be like, you guys are fucking stupid. These girls are making this shit up. Peace out my horses faster than your horse.

Nick 1:01:03
After you just sell all your land and shit. It’s like, Hey, who wants to buy some land and all my farm gear?

Unknown Speaker 1:01:08
You know, I’m

Nick 1:01:09
I’m going to get married to someone that’s not from here.

Kalvin 1:01:14
Yeah. Oh, God, Kansas. has none of the shit going on.

Nick 1:01:19
Here. This new dope ass state of New York.

Kalvin 1:01:23
Manifest Destiny bitches. Yeah. I don’t know that I would have like, tried to stop anything, necessarily. But I also wouldn’t have been able to help myself from just being a fucking doll.

Nick 1:01:36
The kid thing would have been tough for me to. It depends on what point in my life so like, yeah, till I had my kid, I would not have said shit. I would have just been like, let’s go. Let’s go honey. We’re gonna get on our jalopy and get the fuck out of here. But after having a kid be really tough to see them getting executed.

Kalvin 1:01:57
Yeah, and I don’t know that I definitely wouldn’t bought into anything or act it and I also wouldn’t have acted like nothing is going on. Right? I wouldn’t have just been going like, Oh, no, I’ll totally cool. I get it. And I just think that’s a different level of dissonance than like admitting something bad is happening. And then leaving so that myself and or my family doesn’t get dragged into it. Like you guys are fucked up. So I’m getting out of here. I wouldn’t just be like, yeah, there’s some weird stuff going on Salem. So I’m getting out of here and just pretending like it’s nothing that bad. Right. I don’t know that. I could do that.

Nick 1:02:33
I would have a hard time doing that, too. But I mean, I’m out.

Kalvin 1:02:38
Yeah. Audi.

Nick 1:02:40
Yeah, Audi 5000. I don’t even care.

Kalvin 1:02:44
Do you have anything else on witches? Or the Salem witch trials? Or Sabrina? The Teenage Witch? Anything? Really?

Nick 1:02:51
No, I think I’m witched out. The Scarlet Witch is my new favorite witch. All the witches of Ipswich.

Kalvin 1:02:59
There you go. She’s like a witch. I mean, I’m a Hermione Granger fan myself. But Scarlet Witch is alright. Honestly, I

Nick 1:03:06
never really considered Hermione Granger. Like a witch. Reason being is I just consider her a wizard.

Kalvin 1:03:14
I know that’s understandable, but they’re called witches. I gave the historical texts you know

Nick 1:03:19
male female the nomination of magical user I understand

Kalvin 1:03:22
but your gender fluid type of Hogwarts student

Nick 1:03:28
I mean, I guess I just always viewed her as a badass fucking wizard didn’t really matter that she was a woman given them so

Kalvin 1:03:37
there we go. Future minister magic there everyone.

Nick 1:03:40
Um, fucking woke everybody. Yeah.

Kalvin 1:03:44
Thank you for listening to us. ramble on about wishes. Sorry, you didn’t get to hear about spies. We will not be coming back to it because the show’s ending in three months we already have everything planned out and that is not on the agenda. So thank you for listening about witches come back next week as we do another selective listening on a great song. That I’m not gonna say you guys just gotta come back and see it’s not about witches, though.

Nick 1:04:08
You might be able to guess the time period. It’s from from this next statement I’m about to make. He was one of six songs I had on my PSP.

Kalvin 1:04:19
There you go. So it was anywhere from like 2005 to 2001. Okay, there we go.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:28

Kalvin 1:04:32
make sure you check out at APA something on Twitter and at alone underscore podcast on Twitter. A lot of Twitter’s going on out there. That magic TV three podcast is coming soon in August where we will be breaking down season three of everyone’s favorite TV shows starting with Breaking Bad. Stay tuned for a pilot episode on that too, because there’s a lot of fun stuff coming there and a lot more fun stuff coming here over the next three months.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:57
It’s about to be blessing. Yeah,

Kalvin 1:05:00
so just for the preview, we got that selective listening. Next week then we’re going deep on Tommy Oliver from the money Morphin Power Rangers. And then we are we got Harry Potter movie superlatives. That’s why her money was kind of fresh in my brain. watching some Harry Potter films lately, so

Unknown Speaker 1:05:18

Nick 1:05:19
I told my wife about that she’s

Kalvin 1:05:22
awesome. She needed to do we need a guest.

Nick 1:05:26
She Come on dude. She would not

Kalvin 1:05:28
well she is invited. As always. And as always, the music for podcasts about something is provided by those cats. Stay classy

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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