Episode 104 – A Podcast About Serial Killers


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hello each week we dive deep into whatever it is we find interesting I’m your host Calvin and joining me locked in a pit in someone’s basement your co host Matt Christiansen you told me to put the **** lotion on my skin it’s pissing me off promotion or the spirit get your **** basket out of here it puts the notion or Mister or did star whose return dogs a little bit stuff to to get buffalo bill if I do say so much that was pretty solid we’re talking serial killers today factual fictional work covered at all hello yeah movies T. V. real life the extraordinary the I’m not sure how we would be serial killers if we became one I don’t know about all that I can’t that wasn’t on your outline it is very patented in for yeah I didn’t I didn’t plan it out either don’t worry bout that I think everyone has a backup plan that’s what I’m all right yeah we are trying to cover it all %HESITATION but let’s start with the basic what makes a serial killer see I mean I think you got to start with the definition and that’s %HESITATION it’s a person who commits a series of murders often with no apparent motive in typically Fong a characteristic predictable behavior pattern and it just that’s good definition it’s it’s solid it’s a good like parentheses to work within and it’s also typically someone who murders three or more people because I was yeah I had three or more yeah I was very concerned about what exists like with the serial meaning you exactly like well and then what’s the differentiation between serial and mass murder and streamer because those are all three different things apparently well and they I think they all kind of overlap to at the same time %HESITATION yet %HESITATION because I mean I’ve seen some of the mash shooters in the past several years referred to a serial killers and technically they are serial killers they just do it all at once yeah we just kind of **** up but the you know they’re **** up much people but yeah I think for me it it was definitely the the multiple kills and it you know three or more is the the baseline and it appears to be and like the biggest thing in my mind that’s always stuck is like there’s usually a pattern and that’s the most important part to differentiate between like mass murder or spree murder because I think like when you just kill a bunch of people randomly that’s your mass murder when you kill a bunch of people in a row your street murder rate like the %HESITATION the sniper the DC sniper yeah ten fifteen years back he was like a spring or he just up and pick people off of you know give a **** who is killing like the first serial killer I might I know the victims but they they’re killing them for a reason often they don’t right well not yet they think that it yeah I don’t know sometimes %HESITATION so the wikipedia definition %HESITATION had added this bit that it’s usually in service of abnormal psychological gratification there some compulsion with in them that satiate something in their brain and that’s why they have to keep killing and it says %HESITATION the murders take place over more than a month and include a significant time %HESITATION significant period of time between now yeah yeah I mean it’s kind of this drawn out thing rather than like a mass murder or spree killer worth that’s all rather quickly usually well yeah and I mean it makes it even more frightening because it takes another level sought to not get caught plan that **** out it’s it’s very unnerving very indirect eat well you know sorry go head sorry even though like when faced with real life serial killers and T. V. serial killers they %HESITATION I don’t know they don’t reflect upon each other very well so it’s kind of something where I’m just like yeah you know I have a caricature in my mind almost built up it’s getting right yeah not right and and realize so serial killers often don’t live up to what T. V. movie serial fictionalized versions of serial killers %HESITATION can’t do and I just more from wikipedia the psychological gratification as usual motive for serial killing most serial killings involved sexual contact with the victim yep yeah I states that motives of serial killers can include anger thrill seeking financial gain an attention seeking %HESITATION the murders may be attempted or completed in a similar fashion that’s the pattern has kind of talking about the victims may have something in common %HESITATION demographic profile appearance gender race and the serial killers near mass murder or spree killer although there may be conceptual overlaps between serial killers and spree killers and then here’s the last interesting thing I found from wikipedia seventy six percent of all known serial killers in the twentieth century were from the United States yeah and good job we’re number one ninety percent of the numbers white people white men I’m pretty sure yeah you know that that’s not sourced anywhere but I would be hard pressed to disagree with you %HESITATION yeah I’m gonna I’m gonna leave the and %HESITATION yeah just it’s strange that there’s this compulsion and they get that gratification and they just it’s it’s often a sense of they just can’t help themselves and that’s one of things I think T. V. and movies do a good job of portraying there’s other things that come in there that they kind of go off the rails with but they always kind of go back to that there’s this compulsion that they’re not doing it for themselves there’s this tick in their brain that’s telling them they have to do it I mean what a **** up road actually stop themselves they they don’t necessarily want to kill they know what’s wrong some in some cases and they they just can’t not do it well it’s like %HESITATION you know alcohol she can’t just not drink you know it’s something that that’s just a **** up rolling the dice other dice in my opinion that they got stuck like I really like food sometimes I can’t resist that cupcake in front of me I’m gonna **** need %HESITATION luckily I don’t want to kill people so I mean that’s kind of %HESITATION up in the error you know universe dictating some random bullshit but it’s it’s very plausible and realistic to look at it from that point to be in my in my opinion you know I agree with you there so do you have any information on the for serial killers where that kind of the name sprouted up what what did you find in your research about kind of how this all started all right I latched on to two characters %HESITATION I I did a bunch of research and no mmhm no one really great I think gravitate to anyone quite like it did you used to because they both have a very specific reasoning behind it or not specific reasoning but they were very popular %HESITATION most okay they’ve been the most sensationalized and that’s %HESITATION Lou pain Lee Henley %HESITATION yeah I saw him yep yeah G. G. down from one forty four to one sixteen BC %HESITATION he went with was him because he he did it under its own volition instead of being involved with like a conspiracy or something and he just murdered a **** load of people which it sounds like you just kind of kind of enjoyed it and he’s one of the first honorable record like I think there was one person before him but it was just it didn’t sound very verifiable yeah the only thing that I found like before him what was that %HESITATION kind of the mythology around like werewolves and vampires some believe that that stems from medieval type serial killers before this time period %HESITATION but there’s not really any good documentation to back that up but they they would just you know people describe these weird ritualistic deaths and I think I often got attributed to these fantastical beasts instead of you know just some crazy guy and there’s no you know going back before hundred fifty BC there’s no documentation like that you can trust on anything yeah I mean it Chinese the chart ancient Chinese were amazing it keeping records so yes that was trusted yeah you know that was that’s why they’ve been around forever well and that’s in %HESITATION looping Lee she would apparently go out on these expeditions with twenty to thirty slaves or just other people and just order in the should people in taking my stuff from yeah pretty much he got loaded and then I mean he would as killers on men in yeah well I mean just make him jump off a cliff faces yeah you you know obviously hacking them to death with a sword and **** like that that would suck too that would suck he only killed over a hundred people and %HESITATION it didn’t seem to me there didn’t seem to be like much of a pattern or I guess maybe there’s a compulsion to do it but it it all seem very random so I didn’t know like really does account with the definition we just laid out does accounted serial killing or was he just kind of crazy do I think it goes I mean that’s kind of hand in hand that’s got to be a little crazy to be zero but I think it’s in anger type thing because I imagine that that time period in China lot of proud people walking around and if you’re a prince especially I mean if someone just respect you in the slightest I could totally see this guy just being someone in power that that kills because he’s upset like that takes him off in his brain so he he goes after it and I’m I’m really curious what they consider to be people back then because I mean they’re slavery and in that time true like it it’s did you know did you murder five thousand slaves and that just doesn’t count yes the test takes like serving people exactly I mean the U. S. military doesn’t count casualties or civilian casualties so I can totally see it being feasible they try it you know into trying to didn’t count slaves or house people or stuff like that people on the staff so yeah yeah **** that guy is probably crazy **** and we’re just getting this trickle down water down a little bit sh yeah in the future yeah I agree so in my second yeah %HESITATION was the first American serial killer H. H. Holmes from Chicago %HESITATION geo most people know about the murder house %HESITATION it’s eighteen ninety three world’s fair he learned people indeed some super Yuri shifted them and I mean he basically was just a fake from the moment he was conscious of himself like this dude ran every kind of scheme you could think of and you know he’s put to death at a young age after being found responsible for killing a bunch of people and he did it because he was able he knew it was evil and he that was just something he wanted to do that’s what fox was a freak me out about this dude so much is that he just enjoyed it for that yeah it is it’s one thing when there’s a compulsion and and like they can’t help themselves and almost apologetic for it %HESITATION and there’s another I’m there’s like I want to kill people yeah I just I enjoy electric room here for that yeah I get it that’s what I guess on the search for if you had the compulsion wouldn’t that be the attitude you want to take towards well I’d like if you have that voice in the back of your head saying you got to kill somebody today I mean you have to try and find joy in it I would think I mean if you don’t wanna be miserable with your wife’s calling is my what I’m saying look in the mirror like okay we’re going to do is we’re gonna like it can be tough yeah I mean I tell me they’ll make a lot of murder and **** like that but you think there’d be some kind of enjoyment out of it but I well I was pretty definite like you get the psychological gratification but that doesn’t necessarily mean enjoyment that just means whatever that ticket is in the back of your mind thank you satisfied for the moment and then it’s back up that’s it get satisfied and second for a second I had two other guys that %HESITATION we’re bit earlier than that the first was %HESITATION deal directly fifteen sentry Europe something French name %HESITATION he sexually assaulted and killed peasant children between hundred forty and eight hundred kids rice yeah that’s what I’m saying I think we discussed it a little little earlier before we got on there but it’s a lot of it should involve kids that’s so bad yeah I didn’t go too deep into it for it for that reason and then the first modern serial killer everyone knows them your friend Jack the Ripper very fascinated by Jack for %HESITATION so he was he was talking around London eighteen eighty eight he killed at least five women most likely more %HESITATION lead but she is %HESITATION investigation I guess it that led to the invention of many different investigation techniques that are still used today they were doing house to house in Cory’s %HESITATION they were collecting forensic materials and trying to trace it as best I could %HESITATION use curfews %HESITATION they’re doing character profiling and it said office worldwide media frenzy which obviously is still going on today in tennis one murder people are usually all over it specialist a rich white dude for like five minutes and then it fades because yeah the new cycle but **** man imagine just how powerful that information had to be to travel that far like region United States at that time when yep the United States was still kind of a **** up place to be that is to never got specific never got caught I mean I think they I saw some **** a couple months ago or they’re talking bout they found his descendant or something %HESITATION pounds of DNA that they could test and they determined it was like a a doctor or something and random mass do doing a twenty three me test also learns east Jack the Ripper’s great grandson in the proceeds tell everybody at every **** party he goes to from that page you know rippers currents so and you know when we talk to him now yeah yeah he’s like you know in that super cool just to be like a piece of history in front of you and they’re just like yeah you know yeah that’s what she just but the history I won’t do much to Jack the **** off and you know get ripped by someone else that’s something my wife would say to some douche bag if you so that I can get it she’s serious all right so let’s move out of the real world for a little bit will come back to the real world bus talk fiction yes what this is where we thrive yeah yeah we’re gonna fiction per order but real life but we like fiction or I think I mean that’s what you come here for in listeners so let’s start with our depictions within T. V. and movies accurate and why or why not I think the idea behind TV movie serial killers are usually mostly actor like they’re trying to be accurate they’re trying to show that this compulsion that they can’t help themselves or that there’s something else going on %HESITATION and they usually do a good job of building groundwork for what that composing is and how the killing satisfies them but the execution pun intended is often taken too far in some direction like that if it happens especially in T. V. shows but it can happen in movies too though either like model around the turn national compulsion to to like make something else in there to try and make it more compelling or they’ll add in a bunch of different disconnected mental health six or they have them go like just completely off the rails at some point or sometimes they get cured in some weird way and the absolute worst is when they make the serial killer into some sort of super hero otherwise grounded set definitely %HESITATION it to meet the compulsion for serial killing is compelling enough on its own I don’t know that they need to add in a bunch of stuff on top of it like morality bullshit morality bull **** or like let’s mix in a let you know money the waters with mental health issues or like like clearly a person who becomes a serial killer has mental health issues but they often like trying to add fifteen mental health issues instead of just a couple that are easy to understand and easy to see how that leads to it you know yeah %HESITATION definitely like they don’t they don’t need their general psychosis which leads them to serial killing and O. C. D. on top of that and let’s throw in a little bit %HESITATION of %HESITATION anxiety and you know like like let’s just throw a bunch of **** on top of whatever it is that actually leads to serial killers and for good measure thirty eight to yes that’s yeah I mean they always do that **** and gave her some halves I have some you know sexual trauma in their past that leads them down this road or other cross tracks or or you know it it’s always something else on top of it yeah they go they take should a little bit too far so I’m I’d say I’m split kind of fifty fifty like I agree with basically everything you said but I’m I’m kind of more in the middle because I think the edge a lot of what they propose is possible but the execution of it is **** awful like I said if you ever seen Bates motel %HESITATION recent it’s yeah they do a very good depiction of you know Norman Bates separation from reality is very well acted and it’s it’s gradual and so that is also having a sexual relationship with most any day yeah I is he I don’t know probably I don’t I don’t **** remember well yeah %HESITATION okay sorry I thank you way too seriously right there %HESITATION well yeah I mean I think when you have like in Hannibal when you the reason show with mass milk incident where you have like the super swell %HESITATION sexy serial killer they can manipulate everyone and everything in their lives and it’s kind of a super brazen about it I think that is just trying to other you know other bullshit like along the same thing going into the let’s make a super hero like he’s able to get away with absolutely anything because he’s just that good and like at Hannibal is one that I don’t know that that miss need to be built on what we’ve got for movies about it already do we really need to go back in like really fill in the gaps because that’s where you’re going to start to see you got to add extra **** to it to continue to make a compelling because there’s nothing more compelling %HESITATION what D. as in silence of the lambs %HESITATION I agree and I mean Anthony Hopkins **** killed and I helps to put but I think what they did was literally put a bunch of phrases on a dart board and %HESITATION like okay what do we want mad smoking tended to boom serial killer okay he could play who needs an update Hampel and that’s kind of how they they enrolled with it and just special was out there man I stopped watching it because it was just like **** really the first two episodes when we gave up real quick my what my wife and I watched the first season and then it was just like okay this is just too for its like watching national treasure but with murders to eat people well and that was it that’s the other thing that they do in in serial killer T. V. shows is they make the crimes more more outlandish like it’s not enough just to have this compelling story line of a cat and mouse between detective and killer let’s up the ante on every subsequent kill and then they they get to the end of the season I like okay now we gotta go bigger next season and you could tell really early on hand well that that’s how that show was going to go they follow the dexter model yes I want to talk about text %HESITATION **** go to Twitter real quick before we jump into our favorite depictions of %HESITATION serial killers in T. V. %HESITATION on Twitter at A. P. A. something for a poll this week a resounding %HESITATION deceit for everybody in this poll %HESITATION so we’re taking on my zero two is this week and we want to know who is the most compelling T. V. serial killer %HESITATION the first option was the carver from that yep talk six point two percent %HESITATION dexter Morgan from dexter seventy five point four percent yes the vote there %HESITATION read John from the mentalist which he was just like I just looked up a list of serial killers on TV I’ve I’ve never seen the mentalist I don’t know who he is %HESITATION he got seven point seven percent which I can’t believe you got any votes to people watch the mentalist never really I’ve heard of it or get out us yeah let us know why it’s tight yeah %HESITATION other leave a comment ten point eight percent and then we just got a whole bunch comments for Hannibal because the one I think purposely left Hannibal off the list because Hannibal is a movie serial killer like yes he had a T. V. show but the the perfect version as in a movie I’m sorry yeah I think we got a dish out assists people %HESITATION yeah %HESITATION so it’s sort of Firestar’s podcast that Firestar’s pot hi I’m also coming fourteen Hannibal that mail lost and lost as I walk crossing a god damn mountain with L. since key right there yeah crazy but all those were received and why are they in a show about a serial killer who eats people’s brains and eventually get caught no I get it I get it that he’s talking about %HESITATION Hannibal from anything agent Carter %HESITATION that makes sense yeah I guess you fire Sipah fire starters fine I’m all right I like you that’s really hard on the Hannibal TV show for a second there %HESITATION we’ll get a little harder %HESITATION yeah %HESITATION but it was aliens podcast at but it was aliens leaving out Hannibal is a little rude again he is a movie serial killer %HESITATION bedknobs and broomsticks at Broome flicks agreed with but it was always aliens podcast %HESITATION cinema Joe’s podcast at cinema Joe’s I think you forgot someone with a gift of Hannibal again %HESITATION Joseph Mason at lord Machar another gift of Hannibal this time cooking probably far that person looks far I mean yeah what’s we just saw that personal trainer %HESITATION I’m kind of hungry now yeah %HESITATION Michael Vincent %HESITATION lay at Michael V. belay %HESITATION because coming up dexter Morgan was his vote which you and everybody else do yeah yeah your everybody else but he I mean I imagine you probably voted for the pole too so thanks for being thorough thank you everyone for participating at A. P. A. something every week we try to put up a pole sometimes you know we don’t have a good poll but most of the time we put a pole %HESITATION also you can fall Nick at alone underscore podcast on Twitter yeah it’s still participate talk to us we love it %HESITATION so all right let’s talk about our some of our favorite for performances for me I like the serial killer arc more than I like entire show built on a serial killer you know when you build entire show yeah it that the killer just has to keep escaping justice in crazier and crazier way is just to kind of keep the show going and it gets harder and harder to believe the more the show goes like this guy just killed fifty people and and then stuck around to like carve them up in a specific way like you you’re going to **** get second I’m sorry I feel I know exactly what you’re talking about we got a set out library which is going to set go for it dexter dexter yeah so I would watch dexter dexter was the last one I had on my list just because I don’t watch the show but let’s start with dexter well I mean S. most notable performance well just like let let’s just talk about tax deferment okay we got I did extra work yeah the first two seasons of that show are brilliant because of the premise but he chose that show it right %HESITATION yeah he he has to kill Saddam trails no emotions no he’s a blood spatter analysis I don’t know but he works for a major police department around a bunch of detectives and do just a robot basically who you know kills high profile like drug dealers said child peddlers and **** like that like he keeps you root for him for sure like that’s kind of the thing about taxes it was so tight I used to watch that every Sunday with my parents like that was like us saying we did and eventually just kind of got into the realm of the unfeasible in just the asinine especially after he killed a detective like basically blew him up who was you know spelling all kinds of bullshit that he was the bad guy anyway so it’s just it became so unbelievable and it was just a caricature but it was also kind of **** tight I tried to pick it up like right around one season two was starting and I watched a couple episodes of season one and it just didn’t grab me like I didn’t really care about him I I didn’t care about what was going on like I started from the beginning right before season two star add show time for free I was like I’ll pick this up %HESITATION rice is good I just didn’t talk Kerr and it turns out I was right that’s it everybody not Kerry about it exactly it’s kind of like game of thrones after season in but I didn’t watch it but like I know from the talk around it that it just went too far like you were just saying Texas killings went too far the storylines got too out of hand and it’s just hard to keep a serial killer interesting for seven seasons without making him do crazy and crazy things and get away with it I guess someplace not can’t get away with it anymore exactly see serial killers are not **** heroes and that’s where they they **** up like the first two seasons he was not a hero he was just this guy that had an obvious all tear your motive that you know %HESITATION it was clear to everyone that it was justified in his mind says like okay I’ll go along with it but after that it became just like he’s killing bad guys so he’s a good guy and **** like that right %HESITATION I don’t know it and it was really takes someone like Walter white that way it’s breaking bad went for five seasons and he didn’t ever get to the point where it was so outlandish and they did a good job of taking those five seasons and making it okay this is only an eighteen month period here that we’re looking at this guy’s white so they couldn’t actually take it that far with dexter was seven seasons it was both represent seven or more years of this guy’s life so he had to like he had to keep progressing we’re as Walter white never really even had an opportunity to progress but she raised in the in the the mass world and but he can only get so far with you know his looming cancer and all that other stuff so that might be a good maybe a way to look at something like this in the future of like let’s not make them get crazier and crazier let’s compress the time until they eventually caught but up the stakes of that cat and mouse game the only this is detective to a hundred percent in that query starling is an amazing Kerr yeah it had a will doesn’t **** killer right can’t kill the detector because it’s all in part of the reason Hannibal’s great is because call Reese’s also great %HESITATION hundred percent %HESITATION so what I want to talk about that I remember vividly is carver from net talk that show man no my parents **** loved it might I remember my dad went out and bought like every he went %HESITATION you know this is back in the day when DVDs were all the rage at Best Buy and spent like forty five Bucks a season I think you got three or four I don’t know how many they made but I remember he came back a big old bag sat down watched all the one six seasons and so yeah this was I watched a show during college with friends like so it was kind of a %HESITATION just a fun thing that we did we made fun of a lot I’m not a huge fan of Brian Murphy shows Reimers responsible for net talk %HESITATION to leave the American horror story I want to say maybe like that scream TV show they tried to do or scream queens and %HESITATION the politician that they just on Netflix everything that he does like they go super over the top on everything and become mostly unrealistic right off the bat %HESITATION but again this is a show that I just watch with my friends and was kind of fun thing to watch for a drink and other things you know %HESITATION so the carver makes its first appearance in season two and he’s not necessarily a serial killer but a serial you later would be the best way to put it %HESITATION and then he ran rampant through season three and let me just run down the facts here and you’ll see how shows can take this stuff too far %HESITATION raped and disfigured nearly two dozen victims he mostly targeted people who had plastic surgery and %HESITATION that plastic surgery is mostly provided by the main character of the show sonic man Christian Troy I’m with you there good good premise for serial %HESITATION mutilated there right there that’s good right yeah I got the framing yeah %HESITATION the his motive was to make beautiful people horribly scarred calling beauty quote a curse on the world that keeps people from seeing him who the real monsters are still all good %HESITATION that’s that’s a bit and so sounds insulin’s **** all righty yeah but but again just got kind of is supposed to be in but that’s why he’s going around killing people yeah I just I can I can still have that mindset all fits together still right yeah so when the review will come it is revealed that %HESITATION it’s a rival plastic surgery can’t wait and his sister was horribly disfigured %HESITATION and so just %HESITATION to go a little further in this and and going to the Ryan Murphy ness of it in the reveal of the killers we realize the sisters disfigured upper %HESITATION possibly from incest because their parents were brother and sister and brother of the the rival plastic surgeon he had no genitalia again also may be a result of the incest and she became a plastic surgeon just to try and fix his sister but he could never actually fix or so then I started talking just cut should and people they have scalpel fights to god damn right sounds that %HESITATION I think they did at one point like I think it’s like hiding in the corner trying to get away from somebody and %HESITATION and so that that was like it just had to keep adding adding more **** on top of it rather than just like okay as rival plastic surgeon wants to cure the the person on the world of people’s beauty so he starts you know going after these that’s enough we don’t need all that backstory of %HESITATION you know all that other crap on top of it but I will say this was one of the first time I was truly scared by something I saw on a TV show like I was scared the car was going to come get me and could be lurking in any corner I didn’t have plastic surgery anything but like if they they did a good job of setting up the tension behind the carvers attacks well it takes it’ll take away from it when they just hit you with our latest poll showed up right **** okay is like prism break prison break was great to start doing crazy been handling bullshit and well and most of that reveal comes in the like the last two episodes of the carver arc and then they end up getting away in like moving to Spain and containing a reign of terror or some **** %HESITATION working course and it’s like anyone of those details would’ve been enough for any normal so but Reimer if you have to crank everything up to fifteen he goes past eleven go straight to fifteen and it’s like it’s it was really compelling to watch the serial killer arc and then when they throw that poster that you the end of like who he is and why is doing it or why they’re doing it I suppose if so I okay now I now it’s just a joke yeah they’re trying to do humanize it looks like yeah the **** town you suck yeah %HESITATION did you have any serial killers and T. V. but you want to talk about yeah I don’t I don’t bench %HESITATION pump which I mean the same as no concern he was %HESITATION AJ invoking Hannibal amazing all right he played he played a great Kerry no but at the same time he he’s not the flavor of Anthony Hopkins he was I mean Anthony Hopkins is pepper but mass smokes in was lemon pepper when you both are very good on check you know what I mean analogy was a little out there but %HESITATION he did a great job I remember the first season distinctly and then after that it’s just like now it’s just **** and %HESITATION and he can’t he’s not that good like you can’t keep and I don’t think Anthony Hopkins could rein it in either if they went to the crazy links that right hand yeah that that’s the problem the problem is never the performance it’s always like okay how we gonna keep the show going what is going to keep viewers interested add more **** on top of this no I just need to be brilliant and it will have a following let’s talk about that for a second then because I’ve got one last one that does that perfectly Hey me true detective season one Errol Childress first I’m so good so so just background on the serial killings is calling card goes to a doctor women and children torture rape murder and display their bodies and ritualistic poses he was part of the total cult and he was a grounds keeper at the totals light of the way academy %HESITATION the detectives had encountered him on the first go round but didn’t have enough evidence to convict him came back around him twenty years later when they’re reopening the case true detective did a great job of not putting too much on the serial oh my god yeah and a big part of that is because it’s a show about the detectives not the killer but also like it was like we’re going to fit everything into ten episodes so we don’t have time like Hannibal what’s twenty two episodes of season for what four seasons something like that eighty eight episodes that we have to fill with backstory for the character who never had a backstory but he had little bit of backstory that they peppered in through the movies and now they’ve got to fill the scent it just makes it weaker with racks absolutely it’s it’s the same thing %HESITATION Michael Myers like the rob zombie Michael Myers movies when they came out and he put all his backstory on top of Michael Myers like he’s not a skerry anymore because he’s like they should be kid who just wants to watch the world burn it was so much scarier Mike Myers in the original Halloween when she just showed up and was staring at you from across the street he didn’t talk you had no idea why it was killing anyone like that was a much more compelling bill and then what rob zombie did when he came back with the rob zombie movies are still pretty good I could do a hundred percent I agree with you but there’s there’s does type of stores were you don’t give too much to the killer can be very very compelling and when you too much information on the killer it weakens them off %HESITATION yeah I agree a hundred percent it Rick I think in every case it does %HESITATION Loki the more you give located do the better he becomes he’s not a serial killer is a mass murder well that’s true and villains injured effective the killer was only the killer and he just more or less has compulsion very simple compulsion killing in the name of this call they didn’t at all the stuff on top he seems like maybe it wasn’t all there but we never know for sure if that’s what’s going on or or what’s really going on with him we know he’s killing for the call you never felt any danger from the killer it was more compelling for us to kind of put the pieces of the puzzle together along with the detectives right it was is like playing in the eerie S. card game right like when I like a party card game in my opinion and %HESITATION that’s it done analogy I like the stories that focus on the detectives more than the killer like silence of the lambs is good because it takes time to focus on clear east as well as animal because mostly avoids all the traps that we’ve been talking about into the capturing of the killer is more compelling way to tell a story van the actual killing is we don’t see Buffalo Bill or Hannibal I mean I guess we see him will kill a couple guys but it’s not nobody’s the investigation is not into him he’s just killing people because they white and basically %HESITATION I mean it’s not that’s not the sole focus focus of the story it’s it’s not important how he’s killing people it’s important that he is killed people have both Hannibal and Buffalo Bill it’s important that they’ve killed people and that we need to find them to stop that exactly let’s move into movies movies movies this is where yeah I think they I think TV gets way **** outlandish most movies kind of keep it in the %HESITATION %HESITATION the realms of reality I said yeah they they keep their son that go over the top but kind of the point of them is to I’ve got one on my list that that we can talk about that that kind of goes that way it’s just sometimes the really interesting but it’s hard to watch these in kind of put yourself in that my space for to it like it’s hard to watch a movie like that we act even though it’s really good yeah it’s it’s kind of a well it’s not sensationalized like it’s just a story but on the big screen you know it’s not thrilling it’s not yada yada so I think it requires a little pre interest in it before you kind of go into it unlike a lot of T. V. shows were just sensationalize right and they build and build and build and and movie serial killers like a lot of times they’re more compelling which is my account Hamels movie serial killer and on T. V. serial killer because I’d much rather watch anything how conversion and match Michaels and even though like you said that’s Nichols and does a great job it they they just don’t have time to muck up the works with all those ancillary crap that we’ve been talking about for the past thirty minutes that T. V. shocked here I can this sort of error so you know some sometimes they get off from there but they they don’t they just don’t have time to do it they don’t have time to build all that out because they can just take that singer focus on the compulsion because they need they also need to give the detectives and victim screen time and I’m not trying to sell twenty two episodes and they I mean you no one’s gonna sit through a three hour serial killer movie you know %HESITATION so I mean if Hannibal was three **** hours I think it was like two hours fifteen minutes yeah if I I’m just like literally the maximum it could possibly be yeah and and it gives enough time is Texas you get enough time for victims but in a T. V. show it has to take all of that and you’ve got like three hours on just the detectives you’ve got three hours on just the victims you’ve got ten hours on just the killer doing killer stuff and it’s all it’s just too much we don’t need that much of everything I agree I’m I’m thinking as I was going through this we’re probably gonna have to do a serial killer movie superlatives at some point the future %HESITATION hello down so let’s not get too deep into it here I’ll be I’ll be quick and easy %HESITATION yeah I got Christian bale as some in in American psycho that’s great %HESITATION got him on my list does does she count as a serial killer hi I think so he well people give me the **** fax well yeah I mean he kills several people he kills his business associate eagles that check but does he yes does he actually we don’t that’s a very good point you **** no that’s not the he had the compulsion to kill maybe if he’s going and he gained some sort of gratification out of it we thank %HESITATION but it also seemed really random of the people he picked to kill of the times you pick to kill %HESITATION and and like you said it’s a good movie and I’m glad you brought it up because I wanted to like I just want to talk about it %HESITATION because we don’t actually know if he’s killing anyone we don’t know but I think each time he does kill let’s yeah let’s let’s just assume for the killing people yeah let’s just assume so I think it’s %HESITATION the utmost peek of what he could actually resist from his urges like when he kills Jr led O. or appears to kill so it’s yes %HESITATION **** **** back %HESITATION he’s just so sick of this dude so it’s I don’t know well I think it’s I can’t see it looks like Jesus and he just he’s chill out and he would he would is kills would be so methodic disposing of them would be someone thought I could leave no trace to the point where we don’t actually know if he’s going anyone %HESITATION at the rest of the movie just kind of leaves open to interpretation that reliability of the narrator like is he doing the things that we think he’s doing this you know what’s going on so we know what’s going on because she doesn’t know what’s going on is Patrick Bateman even his real name like it brings up all these questions and like they there’s just to me it’s almost a story of just this yuppie who has a psychotic break than someone who has had this yearning to methodically kill people for some sort of psychological gratification like I think he’s just broken rather than this is something that’s been with him as a light I I I agree to a certain extent I just think it’s C. seamless yeah like you definitely I mean it’s way too seamless like even in like fight club for example didn’t make sense at you know relatively some point I think it’s just too seamless in that I think you kill people I’m gonna I’m gonna go go with that my I had a second one K. but %HESITATION in that’s Kevin Spacey and seven little bit out there was the whole you know seven W. he had a he definitely had a pattern in the compulsion yeah %HESITATION I think that’s most notable especially because he got the detective to kill him in the end yeah I got a new newly recruited serial killer way to go and can be serial Lizzie murder people in prison I was going to print actually he’s probably not going to be probably got **** let off and got paid leave for like six yeah they should I mean I would whoever process whoever would prosecute that guy was there’s no way no way prior %HESITATION to do I don’t know on Twitter at eighty something along underscore podcast did Brad Pitt in seven go to jail hundred percent I will send you five dollars %HESITATION yeah %HESITATION I I had two and a half more I want to talk about it first I Livorno’s from monster the scene that was Charlie found I have now but that was it’s one of my mother’s like favorite movies of all you should watch it before we do serial killer movies for lotus sounds we don’t know when that’s going to happen so you got time but it’s one of the best %HESITATION tales of a serial killer out there and it’s kind of the same ways %HESITATION deac it’s based on a true story so we don’t get too far in any of those traps that T. V. falls into %HESITATION they couldn’t ever take this movie too far in any of those directions because I leave our house is a real person %HESITATION they speculate on some things but ultimately they try to make it as kind as possible and monster attempts to humanize the killer and show her struggle %HESITATION with Charlie star on transforms into just this truly intimidating force which is crazy when you think about who Charlize Theron is %HESITATION intimidating as **** well she just not sexy intimidating and then she’s tell you it’s a beast yeah %HESITATION for him master and it’s it’s also about her last days avoiding capture and kind of gives us a glimpse into her lifestyle knowing that she’s kind of being looked for and she still can’t control these urges she still has to keep killing even though she’s literally on the run trying to get away she goes and put yourself back in this position where she’s going to get caught and captured %HESITATION I I think it’s like that’s the important part to get in these movies fictionalized movies often show the killer in complete control of their compulsions on these urges %HESITATION like you said Patrick Bateman Hannibal Lecter seems in control %HESITATION and like some other stupid thing is the thing that gets them caught you know it’s it’s never the actual killing it’s that day decided to dump the body in a different place this time so that’s how they got caught or they just don’t get caught cases like %HESITATION you know it’s meaningless correctly oh my god you just happen to have the one security guard patrolling the lake right find advised of the body but in real life a lot of these people you know they know that the heat is on and they just can’t stop himself like they know they should stop I just can’t and that’s how they get caught because they just can’t help it anymore where as in movies and TV shows they can’t help it but they still are in control of it and not for they do it smartly every single time that some other stupid **** I get some call yeah pretty much this will go off the rails for you Ghostface from scream %HESITATION definitely council people yeah but they’ve had the same goal I think in the same come compulsion and urges I think it’s kind of weird when horn movies our team serial killers because there’s often that outlandish miss inherent with a horror movie especially one screen definitely %HESITATION you know salt Helloween are other good examples that you could put up there as horror movie serial killers you just I mean the movie’s got soggy just probably %HESITATION I mean you can try to help Friday the thirteenth in there but he again he’s like a legitimate superhero super real I guess you’d say he’s a natural right and scream definitely falls into all of the traps that we mentioned in the TV section %HESITATION but it has awareness of it and it’s mostly on purpose that they’re doing it and I just I kind of want to talk bout one horror serial killer and this one seems like the most fun if you more fun to talk about that and saw her how we mean %HESITATION when you think about it it’s really good reflection of the issues with compulsion that I was kind of talk bout in monster of these guys they can’t help themselves %HESITATION they just keep killing more and more people and they have to somehow tie that killing too scary movie tropes you know they know what they’re doing is wrong they know that they they can’t keep getting away with it and they just are making it easier for them to get caught as the movie goes on but I have to keep going to have to finish the movie when they keep changing their plan you keep trying to adapt to the situation is under that all right and so that that kind of like speaks to that itself like well I’m really going over this lady and her family but this other things connected now this other things connected now so now I have to go after those things too and it it shows kind of this tree branching of their compulsion which I thought was kind of cool %HESITATION a little bit cooler than Halloween which is more random until you get to hello into where it turns out she’s a sister and that’s why a will block and saw is more meticulous and well thought out definitely I mean it’s I like to pick a screen because that’s that’s really compelling when you think about it because it’s like lying you know you’re you’re lying to cover wise cover wise cover allies cover lies in a visually that should all come crashing down you know it will but people keep doing it anyway so I sack %HESITATION that’s I like it a lot okay and then just real quick on it sounds a lamb Hannibal Lecter Buffalo Bill %HESITATION I I don’t think you can talk about serial killers in movies without a little bit on sounds wins which we’ve done a little bit when we talk to him about before %HESITATION I I just I think we get both sides of the problems in the good things that we point out with other serial killer tails with silence of the lambs because we get some of the fantastical side of things happening with Hannibal and then we get the more realistic picture of zero to a Buffalo Bill %HESITATION you know he just has to keep kidnapping women to complete his in suit right that’s what it’s all about yeah I think that’s what was going on %HESITATION but he sticks to his plan he doesn’t go out of his way to hurt people that he’s not compelled to and then you get the other side of it where you have someone in Hannibal who seems completely in control and measured and then he gets that little ounce of daylight in the instant he senses weakness he can’t help himself and he bye to do to knows off and then cuts another guy’s face off and where is that I’ve been asked this crazy **** bullshit and like that’s kind of where that movie for five minutes address too far into the fantastical because Hannibal basically turns into spider man for those five minutes yeah **** **** like crazy detective type should inspector gadget yeah and like bubble build not doing any of that thank you I don’t **** weird in the space right in in to my knowledge I’ve watched in a while but she’s not really trying to kill Clery she’s trying to get away from her when she gets into his house but Chris is a part of his mission but she just needs to get away from her so he can complete his mission he doesn’t necessarily like I think he had a gun right yes three seven oh that’s right big **** I just I don’t know that we need Hannibal turning into spider man for five minutes to understand this movie or make the movie good like will make him that much but I guess I guess terror he could invoke in other people but I I feel like maybe there’s better ways to do that then what was done it could have been left out completely and it’s still one of the terror here’s here’s me net picking sounds lands on the greatest movies of all time exactly best way to go all right so let’s move conversation that you were you said all you want to a movies or did you have more thank you Sir all right so let’s try to move back to fiction first nonfiction I think we’ve kind of hammer home the point %HESITATION just one more time though fiction there’s there’s a bit of a disconnect with fictional tales %HESITATION from what they’re like in the real world they they often can’t stand task decides that’s not a word I’m sure yeah they they embellish there were a lot better and it makes things a little too outlandish off %HESITATION all the **** time so I mean I would say literally fictional serial killers would outpace regular serial killers out hundred out of a hundred times like a real Sir closed to bikes for people and that minimum time A. T. V. serial killer would have killed a hundred twenty %HESITATION exactly and they would be you know **** in a million different checks that are popular in the police department %HESITATION and often the fiction buries the compulsion or the psychological satisfaction the killer gets out of there kills two trying to make the story more compelling in some way whether it’s adding more on top of initial compulsion or sometimes fiction will try to break the compulsion so the tour ends up going after the main character who doesn’t necessarily fit in the bounds of the compulsion but you’ve got I mean detective on it now all of a sudden the killer only cares about killing the detective even though the detective doesn’t fit the rest of the killer’s modus operandi you know and they they have to so they because they want to get caught in rhyme and %HESITATION it’s don’t war compelling TV if the main character’s life is actually in danger which have silence of the lambs does a great job of that by instead of having Buffalo Bill seek out click res which would be completely out of character she goes into his house alone in the dark and that’s why she’s in danger shows to talk some real world examples do you have any historical ones other than what we had that on the top no I I tried to find a third one I had a third one in the back of my mind I saw on an episode of unsolved mysteries when I was a kid and scared the **** out of me because it was random unsolved mysteries from when you’re a kid like we’re the weirdest thing in the world %HESITATION and you always have memories of them we have no idea what usually what the mystery was exactly I have a reenactment with a train going through someone’s house and I believe John looked out was one of the reenactors that’s all I remember I don’t know what the mystery was or anything else going on around it but it’s like the weirdest thing that’s money yeah however the alien ones and then this one where it was like head Iranian guy once it was middle eastern and they were like showing video %HESITATION of %HESITATION these like huts they found was like hundreds of outfits from children and that you know they found a ton of blood at like all kinds of instruments and crazy **** like that and I remember that she liked the most frightening thing the far end of the spectrum in my opinion that’s yeah the **** out of so I found it three real world example I thought it was fun to think of how they would make the movies of these real world examples like to outlandish and do that like make the mistakes that we’ve been talking about %HESITATION I’ll try and fly from here since this is kind of unplanned detour %HESITATION the first is Herald Dr death shipment great serial killer name right there two hundred eighteen credited murders %HESITATION may have been as many as two hundred fifty between nineteen seventy to nineteen ninety eight he’s a popular British position is merit family man nobody suspected thing basically %HESITATION he killed mostly elderly women he left them fully close sitting straight up using legal doses of diamorphine so like you would go in our house to care for them %HESITATION shoot them up with time morphine and then just leave them there for a family member to find and then they call in their forties %HESITATION so she was caught actually he would send most of them for cremation so that’s why it took so long to catch them because I don’t know autopsies on I but he was caught when the daughter of one of his final are of his final victim accused him of killing her mother and this is the only victim whom he did not cremate so an autopsy found though Wheatley high levels of time morphine so it was easy to kinda you know put two and two together there and then they traced it back to all these other %HESITATION people that it killed because he had signed an abnormally large number of cremation orders and like nobody picked up on on it until this happened like oh **** yeah Scott might be %HESITATION I’m not very nice man yeah so I thought if this were a movie B. daughter who ended up like right now would be the main character and she would have had some personal connection to the doctor I like should be dating him or some right and so you know trying to poison her also but she’d be too smart for it and catch him so like that’s the kind of stuff that movies add to this thing that you don’t necessarily need to make a good story right they know he’d be like the landlord right up there yeah she’d look like it’s broken has diabetes or some **** and she needs her medicine right yeah %HESITATION so the next one bell lady Bluebeard gun S. and this one sounds more like a scary story than an actual real serial killer %HESITATION she killed over does ma’am three nineteen hundred nineteen oh eight her first kill what’s her first husband in nineteen hundred their family store had been burned down her husband was dead %HESITATION they had they didn’t happen at the same time they happen both within the year of nineteen hundred and both happen under suspicious circumstances so she then re Merion and bought a farm in Indiana with her new husband eight months later she was dead again under very suspicious circumstances so then she starts placing newspaper ads asking potential suitors to come meet her at her farm see what she’s got going on she’s kind of the rich lady %HESITATION farm %HESITATION only one of those guys made it out alive so almost a dozen people going to to see her holler matter if you will %HESITATION what makes it out alive the one that did make it out here poorly woke up to see a sinister looking can I standing over I’ve heard %HESITATION drive heard her story before getting on like war yeah with Erin Mankey and yeah she’s like yeah I’m a rich widow you should kind of hippie %HESITATION man and they got all their **** she would melt like melted down their bodies in the basement and it’s clear that you should %HESITATION yes she’s wild so nineteen no A. F. R. a fire devastated their farm animals the wreckage %HESITATION they found the bodies of her remaining children and that decapitated corpse of a woman they could not prove that it was her body %HESITATION it seem to be smaller than she was but deterioration things like that it it could have been %HESITATION they claimed it was hers even though they couldn’t really prove it was %HESITATION and a search of the burn pharma discovery of almost a dozen bodies including many of the suitors and several children to me if this were a movie I think they were trying to stick pretty close because this is a pretty bat **** crazy story to begin with it’s definitely a horror film I think it’s told from the point of view of the guy that got away right I think the only thing that they add here is he would have some connection to the first husband like that’s why he’s going to check out that’s why he’s answering personal ads because he remembers her from Marianna first husband and then the prize throw in some mental health indicators for her as well passed from my childhood sexual be something like that %HESITATION all yeah that was my take on if they got into my in MLS to make these movies I’m here right up to I mean I’m there the last on talk about Jeffrey Dahmer so Jeffrey Dahmer Jeffrey Dahmer is a name that I’ve always heard but never really understood his story never knew it so that’s kind of why I wanted for him a little bit Perrin he had seventeen victims between nineteen seventy eight nineteen ninety one %HESITATION she would mostly kill young non white man he would either body parts and practiced necrophilia I would be victim escaped and led police to his house where they discovered photographs of the dismembered body severed heads into until you have several other men in a tub full of acid he used to dispose of the bodies now see asked Jesse Pinkman that is not a good idea you know screw it up exactly yeah because it’ll melt through exactly %HESITATION if this were a movie I think it would definitely focus heavily on childhood trauma of some sort like that that would be the reason they would give to I I think they would tell from his point of view they trying humanize him in some way or excuses behavior kind of like monster does %HESITATION I it’s kind of hard to do these sometimes because again I feel like these are already compelling stories to begin with and they don’t need any sensationalism but Holly was always has to add a few cherries on top of any story they’re telling %HESITATION no doubt %HESITATION so I think I think they were trying to tell that story kind of like they tell monster where it’s like well this guy really do have a lot going on yeah he had a couple bad days and %HESITATION uses real hungry for what without food one too many times as a kid so he lives off you all right so let’s settle up with the serial killer still out there just give everyone a good scare before leaving for the day I mean did you find in your research %HESITATION who did you find your research is still out there on caught well I mean they recently caught the golden yeah that that guy was pretty intense I listen to a podcast where they featured some of his audio that you I called and left a voicemail on this checks phone and it was one of the most chilling should oh my goddess **** haunting %HESITATION yeah it was it was really uncomfortable and I was at work when I was listening to it I’m just because I get the **** out of here well these people but there’s really I honestly could not find a whole lot like I found several articles are like possible serial killing but they’re all from you know or possible serial killer on the loose but I didn’t really find a trail of evidence that suggested that they were still active or panned out yeah so that was kind of what I found is like they’re they’re probably still out there but it doesn’t seem like they’re active anymore %HESITATION but they never actually found someone to penalties killings on the first one I want to talk about the Long Island serial killer or the Craigs list Ripper %HESITATION I had ten plus victims three nineteen ninety six and two thousand ten %HESITATION eight female sex workers bodies were found on Gil go beach %HESITATION and along with one toddler believed to be the child of one of the email so and one cross dressing male sex worker worker made up to ten victims %HESITATION they all use Craig’s list to advertise their services so it seemed like he was higher than hiring them off Craig’s list telling them and I’m very ma’am on this beach never %HESITATION been connect no I mean I wonder why the stocks and twenty ten don’t be a prostitute on Craig’s list seriously it’s a legal yep that’s the problem here the other one %HESITATION was the rainbow maniac guys from %HESITATION will I just like this name so that’s why I went with it the rainbow maniac what the kind of double one hundred bullshit is that so surprised he’s from Brazil I want to go outside the US for this one he killed thirteen people over an eighteen month span in two thousand two thousand thousand eight target game in in transvestite hence the rainbow %HESITATION execution style killings with bullets to the head they’re all killed in the patriots park and dumped with their pants around her ankles %HESITATION again no one ever arrested but seems to have gone by the wayside at this point you bring up an interesting question like why why these people stop is the composer of the field have I found better ways to kill and I could call have they been arrested and we just don’t know a lot of possibilities or close discount through what do you think the number of serial killers or the Perrin number of serial killers has gone down thanks to **** hard van like yeah I I honestly think there the thrill his kind of lessened a little bit more so it’s like okay in the seventies eighties nineties before like forensics in communication between precincts was really good and it was so easy I think they were they had a limited purview of you know people watching them when they it was just so much easier which I think added to the thrill of it right because it’s like you got all that attention that you need like %HESITATION one of the things that that attention speaking is a mark of some of these people I’m sure it’s a major major right now and like you said everybody’s collective consciousness is so short lived right now that nobody gives a **** about anything after ten minutes you don’t get that attention you’re speaking from at and like like you said it’s becoming easier to catch and tract attention serial killers list forensic psychological profiling crowdsourcing is a big thing right now the true crime community on the internet is huge and kind of love to pull at the strings all day whether they’re real or not they’re still a current and **** like like cold cases that’s crazy and like facial recognition and other technology has become so abundant like there’s cameras everywhere security systems everywhere we have is always connected lifestyle that makes it hard to not be seen doing something right and I think just about every when you’re in the realm of like murder and **** like that like the compulsion aspect like how rapid that compulsion is I think four hundred %HESITATION I think that %HESITATION you know the rest reward factor is still prevalent I mean I think that’s still reigns supreme in that realm of such extreme so it’s something where I think now it’s just too much of a risk in even if that’s a compulsion you you want to scratch you have to scratch you don’t if you’re gonna get caught because you’ll never get to scratch second portion again you know what I mean or never have the the option of scratching that itch it’s never something you could work up to blah blah blah I think it’s just too easy to get caught right people are **** suspicious of each other these days man it’s you know back in the day it’s like someone was out all night and they showed up with blood all over was like always you know slaughtering the cows in the seals whatever well and especially if there’s some sort of pattern to you know to go along with their compulsion and tie these things together like detectives are now trained in internet sluice are being trained to look for connections in places where no one would have thought to look twenty years ago if you probably pulling at strings that that no never would have thought that those strings are connected in nineteen ninety four but now we’re like oh yeah this thing does go with this thing and detectors are being better training for that people on the internet like people just in general are kind of better at doing that nowadays and I think another big factor in it %HESITATION there’s a bigger focus on mental health and mental health services and there’s more resource available all the time in most places thank you %HESITATION great point it’s getting easier to fight these tendencies in people earlier they don’t actually get to the point of acting on the compulsions because they have the resources they need early in their lives.

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